Helen:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm not Calvinist, I'm not Arminian. I'm simply a Christian. That's first. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As it should be for all believers. Nevertheless, it begs the question: what is a Christian? One who simply believes, or one who adheres to proper doctrine as well? It may seem pietistic to claim “I am a Christian” or “no creed but the Bible”, but the believer must come to grips with what the Bible teaches concerning the person and character and attributes of God, as well as His purpose and role in soteriology.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do men have a choice? Yes, or it would never have been said "Choose this day whom you will serve.." The entire Bible contains a series of 'if...then...' clauses put forward by God in one form or another. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Men have a choice, but that choice is always – always – limited by their nature. The call to choose repentance is not an invitation but a command. “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, [31] because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead." Acts 17:30-31 (ESV)
The concept of free-will is unknown in the Bible. Even God does not have a true free will. His will is limited by his character and attributes. He cannot choose to be evil (although he uses evil to accomplish his purposes in the world). Likewise, man cannot choose to be good or do good. Man being evil, can only choose what is limited by his evil nature. Man chooses what satisfies his fleshly desires; not what God commands. Even choosing God is the work of God and not man. “Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. [27] Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." [28] Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" [29] Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." John 6:26-29 (ESV)
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What about Romans 8:29? It starts with 8:28, which is consistently ignored by Reformed theologians: "those who love him" is the first part of the series. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
To suggest that Reformed theologians “ignore” Romans 8:28 is most disingenuous. I could cite you dozens of sermons and expositions concerning this passage by Calvinists. What does it say?
Verse 26 starts the paragraph.
We see in 8:26 that we cannot even pray, but that the Holy Spirit must pray for believers through believers . even prayer is a work of God to God on our behalf. Romans 8:26 (ESV) “Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. [27] And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”
Verse 28 gives believers a blessed promise: “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.” Who are believers: unregenerate sinners who “choose to come to Christ”? No, for “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. [64] But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) [65] And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." John 6:63-65 (ESV)
Believers are those “whom he foreknew (meaning foreloved)he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” Rom 8:29-30 (ESV).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And those who love Him are predestined to be conformed to His image -- and He takes full responsibility for that (Phil. 1:6).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How can God take full responsibility for something that he cannot do if the will of man can thwart his own will?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Predestination has to do with the final condition of the believer, not with who will and will not become a believer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No. Predestination means being elected to be saved before the foundation of the world.
Isaiah 44:7 (ESV) Who is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and set it before me,
since I appointed an ancient people.
Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Malachi 1:2-3 (ESV) "I have loved you," says the Lord. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob [3] but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert."
Matthew 11:25-26 (ESV) At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; [26] yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
Matthew 20:23 (ESV) He said to them, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father."
John 3:5-8 (ESV) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' [8] The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Ephes. 1:4-8 (ESV) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love [5] he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, [6] to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. [7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, [8] which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This doesn't say that God didn't always know who would be who in the end, but that His knowledge did not force the issue for any human being. Peter says clearly that God does not want one to perish. Not one. Jesus cried over Jerusalem, saying "I would" that Jerusalem would respond to Him, but Jerusalem would not. Verse 28 says this <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are confusing God’s perfect decretive will with his permissive will and the fact that God does not joy in the death of the wicked.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We not only have free will, God respects it. Please note that in the ten Plagues of Moses the Pharaoh hardened his own heart for the first five, and it was only after that that God hardened his heart -- sort of like, "You want it? You got it!" This gives Jesus' promise of "Seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened..." a double-edged meaning. Those who want the truth will get it. Those who prefer a lie will get that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Romans 9:14-18 (ESV) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What about all the saints listed in Hebrews 11? How were they saved? They did not know the name of Jesus. But they knew the Promise. God's Promise, originally stated to Eve and reiterated a number of times in the Old Testament. There is some textual evidence that Abraham thought maybe Isaac was the Messiah, and understood that there must be a sacrifice and a resurrection. Take a look at the point at which he and Isaac leave the servants behind to go up the mountain. Abraham says, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. WE will worship and then WE will come back to you." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This hurts your case rather than help it. The reason OT saints are saved is that they are God’s elect, just as NT saints are. They were chosen by God’s grace through faith for salvation, and did not receive the promises until a later time. The faith needed to hold on to salvation is the faith they were gifted with according to available revelation.
Isaiah 45:4-6 (ESV) For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I name you, though you do not know me.
[5] I am the Lord, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,
[6] that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
Proverbs 16:4 (ESV) The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.