Restoring a Christian Republic

Mark,

Sounds like a Theonomy type form of government. I think the problem is that the USA has never been a Christian Republic and that such a idea was contrary to the Founding Fathers. Our Anabaptist and Baptist forefathers opposed such form of Governments because when the State and Church (or Religion) marry, the State corrupts the Church. You cannot moralize people. It requires a transformation by the Holy Spirit, something the Government cannot do.

 

Dream on.........

Daniel

 

If anyone wants to see where this philosophy leads, check out some materials written by a certain Rousas Rushdoony, a "Christian" Reconstructionist.

Daniel Payne

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kiffin:
Mark,

I think the problem is that the USA has never been a Christian Republic and that such a idea was contrary to the Founding Fathers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am going to have to agree. The US, even in the first days, was "based on Christian values" but I don't think it was a Christian republic at all.

These beliefs which you spout are the sort of thing that will and do give Christians a bad name with the rest of the world. Please don't get me wrong. There is nothing at all wrong with standing up for your morals and principles as long as they are biblicly based.

 

Why shouldn't we have a society based on biblical principles? Because man is a depraved, fallen, corrupt sinner and under the sentence of death at the time of birth!!
Your utopia would be a total failure. It would last about as long as the first disaster. Then the looting would start, the raping would start etc. (like during 9-11), people robbing off dead bodies) When Jesus rules from the throne of David during the 1,000 year reign, then there will be a theocracy. Not until then, period!
Besides, Mark Twain, I realize, your remarks are tongue in cheek, obviously!!
James2

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

Mark Twain said,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Then why are so many people claiming that it is a christian nation? Are they wrong? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely they are wrong. Here is you proposal with my coments,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1. Close the borders to stop terrorists<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, should have already been stopped.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 2. Allow only christians into the country after a period of time when the borders will be entirely closed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is the problem. How do you know a person is a Christian? What criteria will be used?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 3. Require all public officials to be Christians.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We would probably not have anyone running for office if that was a requirement If a law was set up requiring all officials to be Christians that would mean that the country was Christianized since no such law would fly pass Congress today.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 4. Deport all non-citizens who are not christians.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would, that mean illegal aliens who profess Christianity would not be deported?


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 5. Require all school teachers to be christian and attend church on a regular basis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You would have no school teachers then.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 6. Establish a christian militia on a local basis to enforce the laws that are religiously based.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like a court of inqusition or religion police. (Taliban, Iran)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 7. Ban pornography and books like those about Harry Potter, the occult, deviant sexual practices, etc.

8. Control the content of movies so that only wholesome movies are made.

9. Control the content of TV so that only wholesome programs are shown.

10. Ban abortion, prostitution and sexual perversion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If all our politicians who had been elected were Christians I doubt there would be a need for such laws since apparently everyone is a Christian in this utopian government.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 11. Establish a board to study the problem of the 7 million muslims in the country and see whether or not deportation is a viable course of action.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If all the laws through 1-10 were in effect number 11 would be useless since I doubt any Muslims would be in the country.

It is amazing that many who claim to be conservatives espouse such a form of government since in order to have this form of government you would have to adopt a Federalist Socialist form similar to the former Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. Conservatism is all about limited Federal government and States rights and a literal interpretation of the US Consitution. Your plan is a mixture of Federalism, Socialism and Religion.

If you are Baptist you are also denying a cardinal Baptist doctrine - The Separation of Church and State.

The 1925 Baptist Faith and Message of the Southern Baptist Convention stated it well,
God alone is Lord of the conscience, and he has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are contrary to his Word or not contained in it. Church and state should be separate. The state owes to the church protection and full freedom in the pursuit of its spiritual ends. In providing for such freedom no ecclesiastical group or denomination should be favored by the state more than others. Civil government being ordained of God, it is the duty of Christians to render loyal obedience thereto in all things not contrary to the revealed will of God. The church should not resort to the civil power to carry on its work. The gospel of Christ contemplates spiritual means alone for the pursuit of its ends. The state has no right to impose penalties for religious opinions of any kind. The state has no right to impose taxes for the support of any form of religion. A free church in a free state is the Christian ideal, and this implies the right of free and unhindered access to God on the part of all men, and the right to form and propagate opinions in the sphere of religion without interference by the civil power.

Rom. 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:17; 1 Tim. 2:1-2; Gal. 3:9-14; John 7:38-39; James 4:12; Gal. 5:13; 2 Peter 2:18-21; 1 Cor. 3:5; Rom. 6:1-2; Matt. 22:21; Mark 12:17.



In your form of Government, the cure is worse than the disease. Cromwell tried it in England, Knox in Scotland, The Puritans in New England. All it brought was shame and discraceful hypocrisy.

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

Mark Twain:
What's wrong with "forcing christian principles" on society? EVERYTHING!!! Not the principles, but the forcing. It would not and could not be done because like I said man is a depraved, fallen creature totally incapable of living in some type of ideal, perfect society. Won't happen until when I said it would.

For that reason, I don't complain about modern day depravity because it is the noraml outcome of what depraved, God-dishonoring, corrupt, fallen, sick, lost, headed-to-hell sinners, have brought on themselves. What you see in society today is the exact thing you would expect to see. You see the result of man doing his own thing, being "free", being the captain of his ship, expressing his individuality, holding to a theology that says man is the measure of all things, and of insisting that man is just living for his own good, expressing his "free will" etc.

As far as I am concerned, God is in control, and for a Christian to think that he can gather enough votes (his gang) to FORCE his views on the other gang, is just plain absurd and a waste of time. The society is rotting and the only answer is for people to realize that there is only one hope -- the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the power of God for salvation. If I sound like I am preaching,well, I am. So be it!

Get out of the doing you own thing philosophy and get into the gospel. Jesus said He was the way, the TRUTH and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me. He actually meant that.
James2

 

Mark Twain once said that a Christian was a devout man, and wants his neighbor to be devout too. And if he isn't, he'll take an axe and convert him.

Twain was clearly not on our side.

 

Mr. Clemens, aka Mark! Twain!, while there may be a few Christian "quirks" that sincerely advocate some of the things you do (and that is their right), your posts, nevertheless, have a false ring to them. I would ask that you give some real evidence that you are a Christian and a Baptist or else come clean. I expect your intent is to goad Christians into saying something stoopid. If your honest answers prove my suspicions unfounded, I will gladly retract these statements.

Yours in the interest of honest discussion, rlv

 

Mark Twain,

Yes the Bible is why we hold to separation of Church and State and there is a list of scriptures the 1925 Confession uses. Your Church State idea however has no validation from the New Testament. The Gospel not government transforms society. You may disagree with separation of Church and State but do not call yourself a Baptist for one cannot truly be a Baptist and hold to State Church idea no more than one can be a Baptist and espousing infant baptism.

 

I think it was Mark Twain's book "Letters from heaven," that he insisted not be published until after his death that was the one that was so anti-christian-- nothing approaching it's God-hating, venom-dripping hysteria has been written since. (I admit, it was very funny in places) but since being regenerated by the Sovereign God of the universe, I now find it very, very repulsive. Mark Twain was just a typical humanist, and his ideas were actually the majority of mankind's. Nothing has changed much. Most people are still self-righteous, God-hating, lost, depraved sinners, and Mark Twain was no different. I base that opinion on his own statements and writings. He was very funny, but very lost.
James2

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]