If....then....

The "if ... then" statements of Scripture are true without doubt. "If" these things are done, "then" these thigns will happen. I don't think this is at all in contradiction with reformed soteriology. I think these statements tell us why man is in the condition he is in today -- because the "then" is not enough of a motivation to the then. I think these statements are a far greater problem for the non-reformed position. The statements are clear and forceful. Since they paint such a horrible picture, why doesn't everyone respond? We have an answer; the other side doesn't.

Most have this view of calvinism where there are all kinds of people out there dying to choose God but because they are not elect, they can't. The truth is that the people who reject God do so because they want to do so. They do not want to do anything else. They hate God, they are turned away from God, they ignore God, etc. Do they have a choice? Absolutely. They can choose anything consistent with their nature and they make that choice joyfully and without remorse. They can see the demands of God and they make the choice to reject them.

The position that you have articulated here is really driven by a misunderstanding of the effects of sin on man. We think that man is morally neutral. Scripture presents man from Gen 3 onward as dead in sin and morally opposed to God. This supposed neutrality does not exist. I have come to believe that bad soteriology always stems from a bad view of God and a bad view of man.

The Reformed position on soteriology is what gives me hope in ministry. I am glad that success doesn't rest on my frail shoulders. I am glad I can walk away from those who reject the gospel knowing that another five minutes would not have made the difference ... knowing that different words or different illustrations would not have made the difference. God uses our personal witness to accomplish his purpose. But it is his purpose that is being accomplished.

[ April 19, 2002, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

The London Confession of Baptist Faith, Chapter V

Of Divine Providence

I. God the good creator of all things, in His infinite power and wisdom, doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all His creatures and things,[1] from the greatest even to the least,[2] by His most wise and holy providence, to the end for which they were created, according unto His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will; to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, infinite goodness, and mercy.[3]

1. Heb. 1:3; Job 38:11; Isa. 46:10-11; Psa. 135:6
2. Matt. 10:29-31
3. Eph. 1:11

II. Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly;[4] so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without His providence;[5] yet by the same providence He ordereth them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[6]

4. Acts 2:23
5. Prov. 16:33
6. Gen. 8:22

III. God, in His ordinary providence maketh use of means,[7] yet is free to work without,[8] above,[9] and against them[10] at His pleasure.

7. Acts 27:31, 44; Isa. 55:10-11
8. Hosea 1:7
9. Rom. 4:19-21
10. Dan. 3:27

IV. The Almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in His providence, that His determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men;[11] and that not by a bare permission, which also He most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth,[12] in a manifold dispensation to His most holy ends;[13] yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.[14]

11. Rom. 11:32-34; II Sam. 24:1; I Chr. 21:1
12. II Kings 19:28; Psa. 76:10
13. Gen. 1:20; Isa. 10:6-7, 12
14. Psa. 50:21; I John 2:16

V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave for a season His own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and to raise them to amore close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself; and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends.[15] So that whatsoever befalls any of His elect is by His appointment, for His glory, and their good.[16]

15. II Chr. 32:25-26, 31; II Cor. 12:7-9

16. Rom. 8:28

VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous judge, for former sin doth blind and harden;[17] from them He not only withholdeth His grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts;[18] but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had,[19] and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;[20] and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan,[21]whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God useth for the softening of others.[22]

17. Rom. 1:24-26, 28; 11:7-8
18. Deut. 29:4
19. Matt. 13:12
20. Deut. 2:30; II Kings 8:12-13
21. Psa. 81:11-12; II Thess. 2:10-12

22. Exod. 8:15, 32; Isa. 6:9-10; I Peter 2:7-8

VII. As the providence of God doth in general reach to all creatures, so after a more special manner it taketh care of His church, and disposeth of all things to the good thereof.[23]

23. I Tim. 4:10; Amos 9:8-9; Isa. 43:3-5

 

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know——
23 "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
24 "whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

Helen:

IF evil men had not nailed Christ to the cross, THEN there would be no atonement for the sins of the elect, and God's redemptive-historical plan would have come to no avail.

 

Hello, Helen:
Re ur post, have you noticed that the "if-then" in the Old Testament were addressed to Israel, God's chosen ? And that they were not connected to eternal salvation, but temporal consequences of blessing or curse for obedience or disobedience ?
The New Testament stressed twice that whatever things were written down were written for <b>our</b> instructions, not the whole of mankind
but exclusive to those whom God had called and chosen unto salvation, those referred to as "spiritual Israel".
Then, again, Israel's repeated failure to obey God
and follow His standards repeatedly stress how man, Jew or Gentile, is unable, by choice, to completely obey. Man is corrupt by nature. He constantly misses the mark.
Without a regenerated heart <b> first </b> no conversion can occur, even if he is bombarded with gospel, and no striving to follow Christ.

 

Who made anyone on here Gods judge? What gets me is that God knows who his children are period and not anything we do or not do will change that. Helen knows I have a Deaf son and brethren no matter how you slice it he can not hear the Gospel. I know about Helens children as I have met her and her husband Barry and to say that God needs any of us to carry out his Salvation plans is to limit God plain and simple.

I do not know who Gods children are in an eternal sense as that is Gods business and none of mine. God in times past has dealt with his children the same way we should deal with ours. When your child is disobedient you should punish him in some manner and when he is good reward him. Is not our heavenly Father any different? We are all sinners and its not an act brethren its a condition. We are sinners at birth and if we are not how come we are born to die? Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Can a baby lie? Psalm 58:1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?

2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Even though that is our sin nature and we can't escape it because as good as we think we are without the intervention of Jesus Christ in our lives we are nothing and hellbound. Much as we want to believe that we are not guilty, we are as guilty as those that drove the nails in his hands and crucified the Lamb Of God!

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The God who saved you can never disown you in the same sense that your biological father can never disown you because your blood says you are his son or daughter. Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Just like in the days of old we can choose who we will serve and we will reap the benefits if we do and not reap the benefits if we don't. These are for time and for time only and does not follow us into the glory world. The only one that deserves any reward there is Jesus Christ and not the sinners he died for!... Brother Glen

 

Helen

I did not want to believe in election for the very same reasons you have stated. I fought it with every part of my being for over a year. But, after an in depth study of the Word, letting Scripture interpret Scripture, precept upon precept, not letting my presuppositions cloud my understanding (and much prayer and many tears, I had to yield to what the Word of God says. I would love to respond to some of your statements but they are not addressed to me and Brothers Chris, Larry, & Pinoybaptist will do a much better job than I would anyway. I beg you not to close your mind to the wonderful truths in His Word. It will make you bow your knees to the awesome wonder of His grace.

In His Grace
KayDee

 

Helen I enjoyed reading your posts very much and it seems that the Lord has given you much wisdom.

The old testament is given to us for an example. as so stated in 1 corinthians 10:6 so you can most certainly go back to the old tesament to get spiritual applications. and see how things were done to learn from the mistakes.

The 10 commandments were given to unregenerate men who were not born again who were never quickend by the Holy spirit..they had the option of following the 10 commandments or die..notice each one of them carried with it a death sentance. so it was their choice.

The Bible tells us that the 10 commandments were a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. you know what the Calvinst would try to tell you? They would say.. that God gave the commandments knowing that men couldn't keep them ( even though God commanded that they be kept)

so God gave the 10 Commandments knowing we couldn't keep them, so they could lead us to the realization that we were dead in tresspasses and sin and deprived without hope and could not keep the law( The carnal mind is emnity against God,neither can he keep the commandments) this would show us our need of Christ. and so when we SAW our need for Christ,we STILL couldn't recive him even though God COMMANDED us to do it..of course they will deny this but it is what they believe and teach.

How absurd when God COMMANDED that man belive on Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23) then try to teach man can't go to God for salvation....

also the Bible says in John 3:36 He that Beliveth on the Son of God hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth(present tense) on him.

Now, if you were one of the elect and predestined to be saved, how do you account for the fact that the wrath of God abode upon you constantly before you believed? Is that any way to treat the "elect"?? What is the wrath of God doing abiding on you if you can't do anything about it? Does that sound like the Lord? Do you really believe that Lord would pour out his wrath on an unsaved man when man could do nothing about his condition?

Helen, you keep on! You're on the right track and don't be open minded. the open road leads to destruction..it's the narrow path that leads into life.

Enter ye in at the staight gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which fo in thereat: Because straight is the gate and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Be narrow minded Girl and stick to the Bible.

 

One last thing. Helen, they are Calvinst because they follow the teachings of John Calvin..

John Calvin got his teachings from Augustine. Both were Roman Catholics. John Calvin was a priest who had "supposedly" left the church for the reformation. however his teachings didn't change. and you can check that in History. Maybe this will help you out in some way..if not it's good information to know.

If you compare Augustine teachings with Calvins you won't see much differance at all. and just for your information here is a little about what Clavin taught, that is still going on in the Calvinist church today. I realize that some Cavinist churches may not teach these things..but this is what your name is attached with if you claim to be a Calvinist.

Calvin believed in Baby sprinkling....Catholic teaching

Calvin belived in Limited atonement..Catholic teaching taught by Augustine

Calvin denied the literal Millennial Reign of Christ

Calvin used John 3:5 and acts 2:38 to prove Baptismal regeneration.. another Catholic teaching

Calvin taught all sinners do not have the capcity to repent and believe

Calvin taught that God damned sinners before they were born and elected them to hell by making sure not one drop of Jesus's blood was shed for them.

Calvin would Kill you ( literaly) if you disagreed with the way he WORDED his explination of the trinity

Calvin taught that conversion begins with the new birth without any repenting or believing on the part of the convert..he taught repentance and belief occur AFTER the sinner is saved..

These are just a few things he taught and if anyone wishes to deny this I would tell you to go and take a close look at whom you follow and check out the background of the church you associate yourself with.

 

KJV1611only stated

No, actually we are Calvinists because we follow the teachings of the Bible. The Apostle Paul's writings especially are rich with what is called "Calvinist" theology. Long before Calvin... Augustine, The Waldenses, and Luther were teaching Calvinist theology (though no doubt Calvin helped systemize it).

It is true Calvin was a former Roman Catholic but Roman Catholicism did not exist in Augustine's day. The term Catholic in the first few centuries is not synomous with Roman Catholicism which evolved in the 7th and 8th centuries. Calvin's teachings were a combination of Holy Scripture, Augustine and Luther.

True, but so did most of Christianity for the past 2,000 years. Many of the early Fathers were Premill, the later Fathers mostly Amill, The Reformers mostly Amill, The Anabaptists most Premill, Early Puritans and early Baptists mostly Postmill. Christians have argued for 2,000 years on the Millennial Reign of Christ.

Hohum Michael Severtus again...Calvin did not kill Severtus. The authorities in Geneva did and this was a shame but Calvin personaly killed no one.

Actually Calvin did not believe in baptismal regeneration as Lutherans will point out in their debates with Calvinists. A superficial reading of the Institutes of Religion may lead one to believe that but he believed baptism was the sealing of the covenant of grace. Calvin's error on baptism was his holding to baptizing infants not baptismal regeneration.

True, Conversion does begin with the new birth (Titus 3:5, John 3:5-8) and repentance and faith are the product of that. Your statement actually misrepresents the Calvinist position in possibly implying one can be saved without faith and repentance from the Calvinist viewpoint. Regeneration by the Holy Spirit produces faith and repentance in the sinners heart since our will is unable to believe without us being regenerated (John 1:12-13).

If you are Baptist then your Church itself has it's roots historically in Calvinism for that is the background of the churches you associate yourself with. (Unless you are a Free Will General Baptist)

[ April 20, 2002, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

Joh 8:31 If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

ARev 22:17 nd whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

Kiffin your responses were typical of a Calvinist.

Helen, I hope that you will stick to the truth God has shown you. you obviously have common sense as well as a heart wanting truth.

Kurt the Baptist..Amen on those scriptures

Acts 16 lets the world know exactly how a man is to be saved.

Acts 16:30 a man who was a Gentile,who was dead in tresspasses and sin asked "what must i do to be saved?" He is seeking knowledge, he is seeking eternal life. The response that is given has nothing to do with election, nothing to do with quickening of the spirit so that he could belive.

he is told simply.."belive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." if the epistles were so full of Clavinist theology as Kiffen stated why isn't it represented the in the response? this would be the perfect place to put it if it were true. but it isn't and simple Belief is there instead. Romans 10:9-13

in case anyone wants to say that this man was elect why then didn't Paul tell him so? there was no mention of the man being elect. to say he was "elect" would be putting your own imaginations in.

 

..and how many people do you know who've kept the ten commandments? God knew that we couldn't keep them, and He was right!

 

well timothy..there are people who have kept there are many a good catholic that keep them as well as Jews.

If you couldn't keep the commandments why do you think God commanded them to be kept? for laughs?

What military leader would command his troops to do something that was impossible to do??

anyway lets look at the Bible for an example. Mark ch.10 18-20 this man obseved the commandments from his youth up. at least that is what he told Jesus.. Notice Jesus dosent call him a liar either. he agrees with him. he says that there was only one thing that the young man lacked..

this though is also another example of man's choice to follow Jesus. he is told what he could do in order to inherirt eternal life and he choses not to follow what Jesus said do..he cared too much for his possessions.

but there you go Timothy..yes..people can if fact keep the commandments.

 

Helen said:

Helen, what you've stated is true, and very important. God has always commanded men to follow in obedience to Him, and often has made promises of blessing conditional upon obedience. But that does not in any way limit His sovereignity. While we may struggle to understand this, and must consider all of what the Bible says, we must be careful not to carry the meaning of these passages too far (as some have, for instance, and came up with the idea that God's knowledge of the future is limited and hence He does not know how men will respond to His commandments.)

This week I've been reading through II Kings, and something I read there really caught my attention. King Josiah had brought revival to the land and Judah had turned back to God. Yet the Bible says:

2KI 23:25 And before him there was no king like him who turned to the LORD with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; nor did any like him arise after him.

2KI 23:26 However, the LORD did not turn from the fierceness of His great wrath with which His anger burned against Judah, because of all the provocations with which Manasseh had provoked Him.

2KI 23:27 And the LORD said, "I will remove Judah also from My sight, as I have removed Israel. And I will cast off Jerusalem, this city which I have chosen, and the temple of which I said, `My name shall be there.

I found this rather shocking. Had God not promised blessing upon His children if they would worship and obey Him? Scriptures like this may be difficult, yet they reveal something to us of the nature and character of God.

I find three groups of people here: 1) those who readily and enthusiastically affirm the doctrines of grace (of which group I am), 2) those who are adamantly opposed to them, and 3) those like yourself who are sincere and open-minded in their desire to understand the truth, yet struggle with these doctrines. Unfortunatley, those of you in this group don't often post here (you should more often .) I've been there, so I know what the struggle is like.

I believe the "whosever will" passages to be true. But I cannot ignore the scriptures that teach man's depravity and reveal God's purpose in electing, calling, and saving sinner's, by His good and perfect will. I have to understand and accept that these scriptures, like the one above, do not present a condradiction. They may present something difficult to understand, but not a contradiction. Any apparent contradiction is merely a result of our weakness, for "His ways are far above our ways."

We all have a responsibility to rightly interpret God's word. All of us who struggle with understanding have a right to ask questions. And those who teach us the truth have a duty to do so with patience.

I'm a Calvinist because I believe that's what the Bible, taken in it's entirety, teaches. It is not because, as some will say, that I'm following after a man and merely accepting his ideas as gospel, without considering the whole counsel of God. I'm a Calvinist because that's what Paul, John, Peter, James, Jude, and our Lord Jesus all taught. I'm a Calvinist because the arguments of the other view does not accept equally all of scripture. And that to me is unacceptable.

 

Hi Helen,

You said,

That is a common misconception. Calvin was not the ruling authority in Geneva but the pastor of the Church there. If I remember right he was not even a citizen. Severtus would have been put to death regardless since the Reformers (with the exception of the Anabaptists) and the Roman Catholics had a flawed belief of Church-State marriage that used the sword to enforce doctrine.

I do not defend Calvin's action with Servetus (actually I condemn them)since he did not oppose his execution but historically he did not literally light the fire.