If....then....

[Christopher]

You speak against election and the quickening of the Spirit as if it's not even taught in the Bible. You say that the Bible never said he was quickened, but it never says he wasn't either. You have no right to place your own interpretation where Scripture is silent. Again, there is no mention of the elect here, but what does the Bible say?

[Acts 13:48] "...as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

[1 Cor. 2:14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man doesn't seek God or eternal life, so something happened to this man to receive it. Since you're in the business of name calling and severe sarcasm, i'm in that mood a little bit myself. Just keep posting posts like this and you'll just keep on manifesting your ignorance and thoughtless Bible knowledge. Thank-you have a nice night

[ May 12, 2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]

 

[Christopher]

Your God is just as "unloving" as ours is; he just isn't in control. --Pastor Larry

I LIKE THAT

 

[Sularis]

*sigh*

Kiffin

the origin of sin - without free agency or will - sin is caused by God

Calvinism/double predestination does not adequately explain the origin of sin and how man becomes blameworthy of actions forced upon him by God

Again God does not give double gifts of faith - the only gift of faith is a spiritual gift equated and equal to prophecy and not all Christians are prophets - If you even believe prophecy still exists.

If God gave you faith wouldnt it be perfect? Wouldn't it be able to move mountains; it came from God after all. Since in fact Calvinists tend to be cessationists to boot; they cant really prove their faith is from God.

I have perhaps a wild suggestion; perhaps the reason the vast majority of mankind is going to hell is because we have to muster up our own faith.
Which I believe everyone on this board will admit is almost impossible for man to do. But God gives us His grace NOT faith in that He provides testimony concerning himself; which does not return void in the regeneration of the ability of man to choose God.

Which is why God requires us to go forth and preach the Gospel to all nations; so that all man might be made able to to choose salvation; which is an ability we all lose once we first sin as a child.

My head keeps spinning as I deal with so many theological issues at once

Ill post a quick chart of sorts

Arminianism | Calvinism | Me
God desires that all be saved Yes Yes Yes
God acts on that desire Yes No Yes
God gives faith to save No Yes No
God acts by free "will" Yes No Yes
God acts by election No Yes Yes
God elects by forknowledge No Yes/No No
Election violates Free Will No No No
People are going to Hell Yes Yes Yes
God forcibly sends to Hell No Yes No

Im almost an Arminian save that I believe God does clearly teach both the doctrine of Free Will and Election. God does not violate our will in guiding us; but rather uses outside events to influence us; but we have the choice to ignore God's leading, and grieve the Spirit whereby we are sealed unto the Day of Redemption. God foreknows ALL; but He knows ALL the results of ALL the choices, and He acts by outside effects to remove options; and yes even by direct leadings at times; but we must choose to obey.

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by Kiffin:Uh, Salvation is not about fairness...else God would send us all to Hell Salvation is about Grace.

And it is because salvation is a matter of grace that Christ died, not for some to be saved, but for all men without exception. I respectfully submit that to talk about Christ dying for an irrevocable number of particular individuals and "passing over" the rest is discussing neither grace nor justice but nonsense in the light of such obvious passages like John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2.

Regardless of whether or not all are saved, the death of Christ was for all men, not "all" as in "all the elect" but "all men"!

 

[Nelson]

Nelson, O buddy you simply build a strawman.

I've been told as much many times. But I'm happy you still think I'm a gentleman.

Nelson, O buddy you simply build a strawman. God gives us faith to believe because we have none on our own.

The question is when does God give us faith to believe? I am of the opinion that we all, as sinners nevertheless, are born with the ability to have faith in God, though it is an ability that needs to be stimulated (prevenient grace?) by God's Spirit.

Even classical Arminians such as Menno Simmons and John Wesley believed this...

Nobody's perfect.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor Larry,

Good questions.

‘Why did God create people if He knew He would have to place them in Hell?'

Answer: He did not will any to be lost, so they place themselves in destruction when they refuse Christ's saving benefits. He can put them in Hell because He is sovereign.

‘Why did he not leave them uncreated?'

Answer: He did not leave them uncreated because He is a sovereign God. It was His choice not our decision.

‘Your God is just as unloving as ours; He just isn't in control.'

God has shown His great love by dying for His lost humanity. If God desired worship, and He did, then He could not machinate human beings to adore Him. Worship suggests a freedom of conscience and will to love and adore this Divine Being we call God. He is sovereign because He has chosen to invest humankind with the right to worship or to ignore Him. When a person wilfully ignores or rejects Christ, he or she has turned away His love thereby insuring the justice of God toward that person. [Proverbs 21:4c,d] ‘ . . . even the plowing of the wicked is sin.' The justice of God requires that He place the lost in Hell, because He cannot look on sin. Even the lost souls are His. ‘The Lord hath made all things for Himself even the wicked for the day of evil.'

When we are in Christ, He looks at us through the atonement of Jesus. The lost do not have this incalculable and ultimate blessing.

This is not a total answer to your question but it is part of the whole scheme. I'm sure other people will have relevant ideas too.

 

[connieman]

Dr Berrian...If Christ died hoping and intending to save all men without exception, then He died in vain for all those who are lost. If this were true, He was not much of a Saviour, was He? And He certainly could not be God Almighty.

BTW, according to scripture, we are "in Christ" because of God, not of ourselves, "lest any man should boast." "But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, Who of God is made unto us..." I Cor 1:30

In the Name of Him who died to save his people, all that the Father gave to Him, from their sins, and He fully accomplished His mission,

connieman

[ May 14, 2002, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[rlvaughn]

I think 8 pages is long enough for any topic to run! I'll give a couple of hours for you all to wrap up, and then close this one out.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
‘Why did God create people if He knew He would have to place them in Hell?'

Answer: He did not will any to be lost, so they place themselves in destruction when they refuse Christ's saving benefits. He can put them in Hell because He is sovereign.

This is exactly what we would say except I would add the word "willfully:" They place themselves in destruction when they willfully refuse Christ.

‘Why did he not leave them uncreated?'

Answer: He did not leave them uncreated because He is a sovereign God. It was His choice not our decision.

Once again, something I would say but by your definition, it is very unloving for God to autocratically create people who never desired to be brought into existence knowing that they would reject his offer and spend eternity in hell. That is very unloving.

Worship suggests a freedom of conscience and will to love and adore this Divine Being we call God.

Where is this?? And why do you think that people who worship God are doing so against their will? What you continue to miss is that people who are lost are operating according to their free will and those who are saved are acting according to their free will. No one is forced to worship God.

He is sovereign because He has chosen to invest humankind with the right to worship or to ignore Him.

But how can one be sovereign while choosing to give up his sovereignty?

The justice of God requires that He place the lost in Hell, because He cannot look on sin.

So if Christ already paid for these sins (as you say that he has), how can justice demand a second payment? This is the question that no one will answer for some reason.

 

[rlvaughn]

I am closing this discussion now. If anyone wants to follow up on particular points of this, he/she is free to start a new topic. After eight pages it's just hard keep up.

[ May 14, 2002, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]