Is Abortion Murder?

post-it · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by SheEagle911:
Biblical definition as you define one or two verses? Can we please be spared?
I am just appalled at your last post!
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Weren't you the same lady that has been wanting a literal translation of the Bible and a nonerrant scripture forum? It sounds like you are getting a little bit liberal to say "these two verses" don't count.
They may not let you in your new forum (if it ever starts up).

LadyEagle · Sep 2, 2002

Post-it, I just fail to see the logic where this:

A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

and this:

Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

defend the position that life doesn't start until the first breath!

To take these verses literally does not support the pro-abortion position by ANY stretch of the imagination!

However, perhaps you would like to comment on John the Baptist when he was in his mother's womb?

Oh, that's right, I see you did misinterpret that to fit your position on this subject on another thread.

You pro-aborts will have to do much better than this last feable attempt! There is no Biblical support for your position.

Tragically, more thousands of babies have been murdered while this thread has been up.

AFFIDAVIT

The State of Texas

County of Bexar

BEFORE ME, the undersigned authority on this day personally appeared SHARON BLAKENEY, who, after being by me duly sworn, upon oath stated the following facts:

“My name is SHARON BLAKENEY. I am over the age of eighteen years and I am of sound mind and competent to make this affidavit. I have personal knowledge of the facts stated in this affidavit, and I do solemnly swear, or affirm that the following facts are true:”

“It was the fall of 1988, I was seventeen years old and in my senior year of high school. My parents that had raised me in a strict Southern Baptist home were having marital problems and before the school year ended, they were divorced. I was an honor student and an officer for the school dance team. I had already been accepted to the University of Texas in Austin for college and looked forward to joining my boyfriend that I had been dating for a year and a half in Austin. He was on a golf scholarship to a private college there. Then I found out I was pregnant. I told my boyfriend first. He really didn’t say anything. He was very concerned, but I don’t think he knew what to say. He just held me while I cried.”

“Then I told my mom. She was already under a considerable emotional strain with the problems she and dad were having, and I knew that my pregnancy would not be good news. She asked me what I was going to do.”

“This threw me for a loop. I was not expecting her to ask me what I was going to do, I expected her to make the decision for me, or at least offer help if I wanted to have the baby. I believe in my heart I wanted to keep my child, but I was very afraid of the embarrassment of being pregnant while still in high school. If I kept my baby it would have meant being kicked off the drill team, probably having to drop out of high school, not graduating with my friends (or with honors), and definitely no college at UT. I was also terrified of how upset my dad would be if he found out. Looking back though, if someone had told me they would help me -- anyone, my boyfriend, my mom, a counselor, anyone -- I would have had my baby. Unfortunately, my boyfriend and mom never said they would help if I decided to have my baby, they just asked what I wanted to do, and there weren’t any counselors to talk to at the clinic. Too embarrassed to talk to anyone else about it, and feeling like I had made a terrible mistake by getting pregnant, I decided in hopeless desperation to have an abortion. I felt it was the only way my boyfriend could continue his college on his golf scholarship, my mom clearly didn’t need any more stress in her life, and I felt terribly inadequate to bring a child into the world.”

“I looked in the Yellow Pages under “abortion clinics”. There were hundreds of listings. I called one on the 59 South Freeway and scheduled an appointment for the next day. The next morning my mother took me to the clinic. It was in a tall office building. I remember thinking how strange it was that there was an abortion clinic in the same building as travel agencies and law offices. I was also surprised there weren’t any protestors outside. I think I wish there had been.”

“We went upstairs to the clinic office. We got there before the clinic opened and there were several young girls waiting in the hall for the clinic to open. Some of them were crying. It all seemed like a very bad, very strange dream. When the clinic opened I went to the counter and signed in. They gave me a urine pregnancy test that came back positive. The receptionist asked me for two hundred dollars. I paid the money for the abortion and waited until they called my name. A lady took me in back and had me change into a gown. I then waited a while more and she came back in with the doctor. I kept waiting for someone to talk to me about other options, like adoption, or a crisis pregnancy program, or something. No one ever even said “Are you sure you want to do this?”

“The nurse told me to lie down and the doctor began the abortion. There was no physical exam done at all prior to the procedure to make sure it was safe to perform the abortion, they just did it.”

“First, there were several very painful injections. Then, very painful cutting, scraping and poking deep inside me. Then a horrible, loud sucking machine was used. I felt my entire insides were being sucked out, like my very heart was being ripped from my body. I was crying and I tried to sit up. I think I wanted him to stop, but I don’t know what I was trying to do, I just kept trying to sit up. The nurse pushed me down and put a gas mask on me. Then I couldn’t move but I was still conscious of what was going on. There was more painful cutting and scraping, and more horrible vacuuming of my insides. It was the most awful thing I’ve ever experienced in my whole life.”

“Then the nurse made me get up and get dressed right away, which was very difficult to do because of all the gas they gave me and the operation I had just gone through. She took me down the hall to a disgusting, crowded room full of cots with young girls laying down holding their stomachs, bleeding, and crying. It was terrible. I’m not sure how long they made me lay there but it seemed like an eternity. They would take the girls that were bleeding too much to change their sanitary napkins and then bring in another girl in the same awful state. The room stayed full. For every girl that left another was brought in. I couldn’t believe how many girls were having abortions. I wondered if anyone had asked them if they were sure that was what they wanted, or if anyone offered help or another option.”

“One month after the abortion when I went for my follow-up to my mother’s OB/GYN, I found out that I had a cyst on my right ovary the size of a grapefruit. They scheduled an operation right away to remove it because the slightest movement of the cyst could cause it to twist my ovary and create a potentially life-threatening situation. If the doctor that performed my abortion had done a simple physical exam prior to beginning the procedure he would have discovered the cyst. Instead, he simply went ahead with the abortion and unnecessarily put my life in danger.”

“After the abortion I went into a deep depression, and so did my mother. My mom, who had never even tasted alcohol before began to drink heavily. My boyfriend and I both began to drink heavily as well. Some time later he began dealing with illegal drugs and dropped out of college. I also began experimenting with drugs and quit the high school dance team. I missed almost thirty days of school my senior year after the abortion. I just didn’t want to go. I didn’t want to do anything but try to forget the horrible experience of losing my child.”

“After many terrible fights, my boyfriend and I broke up. I had almost no control of my emotions and would turn what should have been happy occasions like my senior prom and graduation) into tragic fiascoes. I did graduate from high school, and went on to college, but did very poorly in school for the first few years. I had difficulties in every relationship with a man after my abortion, and my overall health and happiness drastically declined. I married the first man that loved me enough to ask me to marry him, just so that I could replace the child I lost and have a child I could keep. It was a terribly selfish thing to do. I was married 3 days after I turned 20, and was pregnant again one month after our wedding.”

“I do have the most wonderful child in the world. His name is Cody, and he’s eight years old. He is truly a blessing from God and I love him very much. While I was pregnant with Cody, I became a Christian and my whole life changed. Being a Christian doesn’t give you a perfect life, but it does give you the perfect assurance that the Lord will never leave you or forsake you. Unfortunately, Cody’s father and I were divorced two years after we were married. Although I had become a Christian, there were significant problems that existed in that relationship because it had not been founded in love from the beginning. I took a few years after I became a Christian before I fully realized that the depression I was suffering from, the unexplained feelings of guilt, the mood swings, the chemical abuse, all were symptoms of post-abortion syndrome. Once I realized that, and accepted the forgiveness and healing that Jesus Christ offered, I was a changed person.”

“Now, because I’m allowing Him to, God is taking the biggest mistake and using it for His glory. I pray that anyone who reads this affidavit will see that abortion was truly a harmful event in my life. The emotional and health consequences are permanent, and women should be told of those consequences before making a decision that will affect them for the rest of their lives.”

“I have read the above and foregoing statement and the same is true and correct.”

SIGNED this the 27th day of September, 2000.

SHARON BLAKENEY
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http://ooc.lexi.net/WhatIs.html

LadyEagle · Sep 2, 2002

Any women who have had abortions or chosen not to have an abortion care to jump in on this topic, or is this topic continually going to be commented upon mostly by men (who have neither the physical capacity or capacity for maternal emotional bonds to the little human being in utero)?

Am going on the record here as a woman who is PRO-LIFE! Any other women care to join me?

Reverse Roe v Wade

Gina B · Sep 2, 2002

<-- AHEM girl birdie!

Justified · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by SheEagle911:

or is this topic continually going to be commented upon mostly by men (who have neither the physical capacity or capacity for maternal emotional bonds to the little human being in utero)? :eek
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SheEagle,

Now I am almost embarrassed to be a man!

But, what about men who have had wifes that got an abortion without them knowing it!

Or had their wife or girlfriend get an abortion, then realize later, their folly!

Gina B · Sep 2, 2002

Ok post-it, I've been thinking about why I would think of an 11 week and under pregnancy as life too.
I guess it's for the same reason as later, although later is more obvious. However, as I stated before, I don't believe that it really comes down to the physical aspects of it. I argued it that way in light of what you believe.
So in the end, here it is.
We cannot know when God imparts a soul to a human being. He did it with Adam on the first breath it is said.
I have a few problems with this though.
First, who's to say that he does it this way for everyone? That was the first human created.
Second, who is to say that it means physical breath? What is the breath of life? You don't hear it said for animals. He didn't say he breathed into them to make them alive. They just were. "And man became a living SOUL". Maybe breath of life is allegorical for soul. He didn't become a living body, he became a living soul. The soul, the part that is eternal. It doesn't even say Adam became a living soul, it says man. So I'm thinkin' it means that's when souls were imparted to men, seperating them from the animals and making man fully in God's image...body, mind, and soul. You could walk around with a body and mind and be breathing, but you'd be in the same class as an animal.
God didn't make Adam and have him laying there for a while before he imparted this breath of life that made him a living soul either. It appears he did it the moment he created him. So who's to say that he doesn't impart a soul to a child at the moment of conception?
Gina
Gina

Justified · Sep 2, 2002

post-it:
I look at my wife as a partner in life and best friend for life. I just control 51% to her 49% of the partnership voting rights.

I’m very careful and fair how and when I utilize that 1% but it must be that way for any partnership to work. The best friend aspects keep two people together for life through the ups and downs. Love is important, but unfortunately there are a lot of divorced people who still love each other that can't stand each other's company, so love alone is not what keeps the marriage together.
_________________________________________________

Post-it,

Just wondering how your wife views abortion and does she support your views 100%?

post-it · Sep 2, 2002

She took me down the hall to a disgusting, crowded room full of cots with young girls laying down holding their stomachs, bleeding, and crying. It was terrible. I’m not sure how long they made me lay there but it seemed like an eternity. They would take the girls that were bleeding too much to change their sanitary napkins and then bring in another girl in the same awful state. The room stayed full. For every girl that left another was brought in. I couldn’t believe how many girls were having abortions.
Click to expand...

This is my concern. And please understand this will happen if abortion is outlawed. These cots will still be filled with women bleeding and holding their stomachs. Only the disbarred "doctor" or "medical student" performing back room illegal abortions, will let some of these women bleed to death or get infections and die.

These abortion cots of bleeding women will not go away because we pass a "law". They will not go away because we try to convince ourselves that the Bible says abortion is wrong. We have lives of good citizens that will be killed in illegal abortions. We still have no Bible evidence to say it is murder. We just have an emotional story written by someone that felt guilty and was sorry she aborted.
Sounded like this young woman walked away alive, but with some guilt feelings placed on her by others later.

But it is emotional arguments like this that lead others to vote to bring a different ending to this story. An ending in which Sharon's mother is telling the story because Sharon bleed to death because the technician couldn't control the bleeding and didn't want to get caught by getting her "real" medical help.

[ September 02, 2002, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

Headcoveredlady · Sep 2, 2002

Sorry, but stories like these happen in legal abortion mills too. My sister had two abortions. With the first one nothing major happened to her, except she paid to have her child murdered. With the second one however, she was further along. The baby was almost four months old in the womb. She paid another abortionist to murder the child. This time though they sent her out hemoraging. She later had to go to the emergency room where my "wonderful" father gave medical consent so my mother would never know. Wow! Isn't that lovely a father who wanted his own grandchild murdered?
Anyway, she was helped at the ER, but later also found out she caught Hepatitis B. This kind only can be caught from other peoples bodily fluids. She also told me how she noted the dirty instruments on the table before the murder. She also said they made her hurry up and get out the door even though she was hemoraging.
Another lady I know who murdered her baby told me she felt like a cow as she was herded through the mill with the other women. She said there was no mention of adoption or any other alternative. She said she literally felt like part of a group of cattle. All in an abortion mill that was legal.
As it has been stated in some other threads, the fact that this is even being discussed in a Christian forum is a sad commentary of the state of the Church.
I hope one day post-it you will accept Jesus as your Savior and stop encouraging women to murder their babies on Christian forums. You will answer one day to the Lord.

LadyEagle · Sep 2, 2002

The following was written by medical experts from the Ohio Department of Health:

Note that this material was not written by "anti-abortion activists"; it was written by medical experts from the Department of Health.

At 4 weeks-- (6 weeks after the first day of the last normal menstrual period).
The heart, now in a tubular form, begins to beat by the 25th day.

At 6 weeks -- Electrical activity begins in the developing brain and nervous system.

At 8 weeks -- Arms, legs, hands, toes and face begin to form.

At 10 weeks -- The heart beat can be detected electronically. The fetus begins small random movements though they are too slight to be felt yet.

At 12 weeks--The fetus is able to swallow and the kidneys are able to make urine. A doctor may be able to tell if it’s a boy or a girl. Blood begins to form in the bone marrow.

At 16 weeks -- The fetus can kick and sleep.

20 weeks--The fetus has been moving for several weeks. Now the woman begins to feel these movements.

28 weeks--The fetus has lungs that can breathe air. About 9 out of 10 babies born now will survive.

32 weeks--The fetus can grasp firmly.

38 weeks--(40 WEEKS after the first day of the last normal menstrual period)
The baby has reached full term and is ready to be born.
Click to expand...

http://hometown.aol.com/dfjoseph/abortion.html

post-it · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by SheEagle911:
[QB]

The following was written by medical experts from the Ohio Department of Health:

Note that this material was not written by "anti-abortion activists"; it was written by medical experts from the Department of Health.
Click to expand...

It wasn't clear if you were talking about a human baby in a womb or a chimp's baby in the womb.

Both seem to develop about the same. Except one at some point gets a spirit. I didn't see where the doctor pointed that month out.
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post-it · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by Chrysoprasus:
That was the first human created.
Second, who is to say that it means physical breath? What is the breath of life? You don't hear it said for animals. He didn't say he breathed into them to make them alive. They just were. "And man became a living SOUL". Maybe breath of life is allegorical for soul. He didn't become a living body, he became a living soul. The soul, the part that is eternal.
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I believe I read that God gave animals a the breath of life as he made them. On the other hand animals and women were both made as man's helper. I wonder if that animals, like women, have souls?

Gina B · Sep 2, 2002

post-it:

I believe I read that God gave animals a the breath of life as he made them. On the other hand animals and women were both made as man's helper. I wonder if that animals, like women, have souls?
Click to expand...

Where did you read this? Please show me the verses or at least the implication. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.
I AM NOT AN ANIMAL!
ROFL, sorry, I had to do it.
But seriously, was that sarcasm or seriousness? I really am bad at figuring this stuff out.
Gina

Justified · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by post-it:
I believe I read that God gave animals a the breath of life as he made them. On the other hand animals and women were both made as man's helper. I wonder if that animals, like women, have souls?
Click to expand...

Post-it,

What and where do you find that in the Bible?

Because, that's not what my KJB says!

The woman is our helpmeet, or completer.

No animal is my completer, we are to have dominion over the animals.

And I have never read where God breathed the "Breath of life" into an animal!

Baptist Believer · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by Chrysoprasus:
post-it: <blockquote>quote:<hr />I believe I read that God gave animals a the breath of life as he made them. On the other hand animals and women were both made as man's helper. I wonder if that animals, like women, have souls?
Click to expand...

Where did you read this? Please show me the verses or at least the implication. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]I think he’s referring to this passage:

From Genesis 2 (NKJV)

18 And the LORD God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." 19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:

"This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man."

24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

In response to what God said in verse 18, God creates animals for Adam. But there is no animal that is appropriate for Adam (v.20). So God creates Eve (“Woman”) from the Adam (literally “Man”).

I AM NOT AN ANIMAL!
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post-it · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by Chrysoprasus:
post-it: <blockquote>quote:<hr />I believe I read that God gave animals a the breath of life as he made them. On the other hand animals and women were both made as man's helper. I wonder if that animals, like women, have souls?
Click to expand...

Where did you read this? Please show me the verses or at least the implication. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.
I AM NOT AN ANIMAL!
ROFL, sorry, I had to do it.
But seriously, was that sarcasm or seriousness? I really am bad at figuring this stuff out.
Gina[/QUOTE]Well, I can't find any other type of breath of life God gave Adam that he didn't give animals. I also don't see where he gave him a soul. My conclusion is that the breath of life contains the soul, but in that case, all creatures on earth have a soul too. I hope this means all my cats and dogs will be waiting in heaven.

The other implication BaptistBeliever quoted. Get into God's mind for a second, ok well at least try. He is about to make a helper/companion whatever for man, no animals even exists yet so he makes a wide variety of them hoping that the man will find one he likes and loves and spends the rest of his days with. Now, do you give this potential mate a soul? Well if Adam has one I think he would. But no partner could be found so God tried again and made another creature/animal and presented her for his approval. Would he give this newest creature a soul? Yes, I think he would. So by default every creature on the planet has a soul.

This could be a great comfort to children and old people now when they lose their pets. Taken literally, the Bible could be saying this very thing. Also not Isaiah 65:25 In the new heaven and earth. The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"

There ya go....

Genesis 1:30
And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

post-it · Sep 3, 2002

Ok more bad news for the CONSERVATIVES and some liberals!

ALERT ALERT ALERT:

Bible verse found that once and for all establishes when "life" begins.

Speaking of the New Heaven and Earth...

Isaiah 65:20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,

This supports the first breath concept also. So far every verse we have examined supports it and now we have one that says an INFANT HAS ONLY LIVED A FEW DAYS (Infant is one that has been born) It was common that a baby could die soon after birth. This will not happen in the New Earth, as it does in the this earth.

This verse can't be twisted by my opponents. This verse backs up every first breath argument I have posted. Life begins at birth and more specific at first breath.

Will you now stop saying the Bible says life begins a conception... that is a Catholic view and one that is wrong.

[ September 03, 2002, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

Gina B · Sep 3, 2002

Ge 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every
thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given
every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Where did you get "breath of life" from in this verse?
Gina

Gina B · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by post-it:
Ok more bad news for the CONSERVATIVES and some liberals!

ALERT ALERT ALERT:

Bible verse found that once and for all establishes when "life" begins.

Speaking of the New Heaven and Earth...

Isaiah 65:20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,

This supports the first breath concept also. So far every verse we have examined supports it and now we have one that says an INFANT HAS ONLY LIVED A FEW DAYS (Infant is one that has been born) It was common that a baby could die soon after birth. This will not happen in the New Earth, as it does in the this earth.

This verse can't be twisted by my opponents. This verse backs up every first breath argument I have posted. Life begins at birth and more specific at first breath.

Will you now stop saying the Bible says life begins a conception... that is a Catholic view and one that is wrong.
Click to expand...

Isa 65:20
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that
hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but
the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

ROFLMTO!
Are you that desperate? How does this establish the breath of life view you're clinging to? An infant of days and an old man are being talked about.
It's very common start counting how old a person is on this earth from the day they were born. Jesus himself was counted that way.
I don't get your point. Can you explain it more clearly?
Gina

post-it · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by Chrysoprasus:
Ge 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every
thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given
every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Where did you get "breath of life" from in this verse?
Gina
Click to expand...

I use NIV, it says "breath of life". However, KJV also shows Breath of life in animals (flesh) when you get to the Noah story.

KJV
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(Whole Chapter: Genesis 2 In context: Genesis 2:6-8)

Genesis 6:17
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
(Whole Chapter: Genesis 6 In context: Genesis 6:16-18)

Genesis 7:15
And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

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