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Is Abortion Murder?
- Thread starter C.S. Murphy
- Start date
I agree with this meaning of breath, and because I overlooked the fact that if a fetus breaths it must be getting something on the line of what breathing would bring to an air breathing person like Adam. If the fetus is just "bathing" it's lungs in the fluids, while it gets it's oxygen from some other source then we don't have a breath, we don't have breathing, we have an open mouth and nose. Who has the links to find out if a fetus takes oxygen from this fluid. I'm too sleepy to find it tonight.</font>[/QUOTE]You missed it altogether! Breathing in the sense that it keeps an organism alive does not require a nose mouth or even lungs. All it requires is that oxygen can be acquired and used to further living activities.
Of course you surely realize after 400 posts that this is an exercise in futility. The real question has nothing to do with breath or any other physical activity. The true question is when does God recognize the spiritual person. In this regard, all scriptural evidence that I am aware of points to conception if not before.
All I know Scott, is that after 400 posts, no scripture has been given that supports abortion is murder before 5 months. It has been proven that scripture supports that abortion is murder after 5 months.
I know that isn't what people want to accept, but sometimes, we have to face the FACTS of scripture, not desires we wish scripture to say.
Using the Bible to beat up women who abort early is wrong.
[ August 30, 2002, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]
I know that isn't what people want to accept, but sometimes, we have to face the FACTS of scripture, not desires we wish scripture to say.
Using the Bible to beat up women who abort early is wrong.
[ August 30, 2002, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]
C.S. Murphy
New Member
Post it I may be wrong but I thought at the beginning of this that you said no Biblical evidence that abortion is murder at any age. If my memory is correct then atleast you have made some progress in your statement above. Maybe there is still hope for you.
Murph
Hello, post-it:
I read some years back in the OT where it was considered a death penatity for anyone to hit a woman who was pregnant because of the possible loss of the baby, not the woman's life. However, after searching, I can't find it. Maybe someone else or you can. Maybe I read it wrong but that was one of my arguements back then. Memory shot!
IF this can be found, it may do a lot for determining when abortion is murder according to scripture. I'm sure I didn't dream this.
But again, with or without solid scripture on this, I can't help but believe that God would say....human life at conception.
I find that a lot of your need for scripture is based more on your support for women that it isn't murder to abort, even though you have agreeded to an earlier time now. I can feel sorry for these women, who aren't following God's will to start with by having sex before marriage and thus wanting to abort, but I do hold them guilty as it takes two to Tango.
I hope this thread last long enough to finally come to some solid ground, even if it takes 500 posts!
God Bless............Alex
B
bspell
Guest
So you concede that the Bible's position is that abortion is murder after 5 months -- that's great. Now please identify another act that's not a sin one day and is the next.
Alex, you will find that verse in an earlier post in this thread. And yes, it is the passage that I use to support that it is murder after 5 months. The way it reads, it shows that if a baby can live after a man hits a woman and causes a premature birth, and the baby dies, then it is murder. Since in today's world we assume that a baby can be born and kept alive via a ventilator at 5 months, then it too, should be considered a life which if killed by another, is murder. At the same time the "first breath" determination of life also supports this passage. So we have two different scriptures that support the "life begins" and "it is murder if" at the time a first breath could be taken.Originally posted by Alex:
I read some years back in the OT where it was considered a death penatity for anyone to hit a woman who was pregnant because of the possible loss of the baby, not the woman's life. However, after searching, I can't find it. Maybe someone else or you can. Maybe I read it wrong but that was one of my arguements back then. Memory shot!
If I do provide you with that sin, will you accept that it is possible with abortion?
Of course not, you will "rationalize" it away as "not being the same thing". I don't know how many times I have posted this excuse before, I make an argument and, sure enough, after I make the case, that's exactly what someone will say.
So tell me, will you accept that is possible if I prove what you ask?
Murph, you are right in that I didn't have a 5 month cut off, that came with the presentation of scripture that one of you posted which made my prior interpretation impossible. I'am always willing to change my opinion of what scripture means if the position I hold is in conflict with scripture. I leave all my opinions and desires at the front cover of the Bible.
Post-it, Scripture has been quoted that shows that God knew people not only in the earliest stages of pregnancy but also before they were conceived. This establishes that God recognizes them as people not body part nor any other absurd definition someone might come up with to explain what they are before they are a baby. It seems you would like to disregard this or explain it away since it undercuts your presuppositions completely.
Also, you are changing the rules in an attempt to evade again. You start off down the trail of logic and when it leads somewhere you don't want to go, you switch back to this claim about scripture.... Then, when you are shown scripture, you want to go back to logic by differently stating your position.
Post-it, After 400 posts, I don't think it is everyone else here who are in denial.
Ps 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
I am sure this has been posted before but notice that this psalmist was known and cared for by God in his mother's womb.
I posted about the phrase "with child". This term is explicit. "Child" can only mean a person, not a non-person.
I am not using the Bible to beat anyone up. The simple fact of the matter is that both logic and scripture recognize an unborn as a "child"- thus the description, "with child." Being a child means being a person... entitled to protection from being killed without just cause.
Abortion is nothing less than legalized murder. It is against the Bible. It is immoral. It is the violation of another person's right to life. And it SHOULD be against the law.
[ August 31, 2002, 03:55 AM: Message edited by: Scott J ]
God knows everything, therefore this type of scripture just verifies that God knew that these people would be born and who they would be. Logic says just because God knew them before they were even concieved, didn't mean they were a living human at the time God knew them. God could have know them and reconized them 1000's or billions of years before they would be born, that doesn't mean they were alive at that time. God knew that their mothers would not abort them. That fact and foreknowledge of them becoming who they would become is all that is established in these verses.
Again, special case, it doesn't apply to others, this is a special case again. Continue reading to this : Again, this shows that God knew him when he was still part of the earth, in other words, the food/water that his mothere and her family ate to bring him into existence.
Ps 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
It only established that he was known (not hid from thee) by God to be coming into existence. It does not establish life starts at any part along the way.
I have already accepted that you may call it anything you want without establishing it as life. Reread Adams creation where he was called a man before he recieved life. Also, I'm not denying that it is a person after 5 months, so at that point it is a person and a child.
That's one opinion which many people hold, it is too bad the Bible doesn't support it. I think it is wrong too as a matter of prevention of a life, but that doesn't make it murder, and it doesn't mean I can use the Bible to make the argument that it is murder.
[ August 31, 2002, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]
C.S. Murphy
New Member
Again, special case, it doesn't apply to others, this is a special case again.
Post I have read this reply from you on several passages I am curious can you prove that each one of these that you say is a remote or special case really is. Also would God have to make a note by a scripture saying that this is special for one or no this is for all. I can see it now it might be like the angel at the tomb saying go and tell his disciples and peter but now it would be go and tell the disciples and Post it that this is for everyone. Just a joke but i am sure you have proof anyway. right.
Murph
Murph, is it possible for God to know that a person will be formed in the womb, born, grow up and become a doctor if that person is aborted before he was born through the choice of the mother?
Or did God know that the mother would abort, therefore the child could never grow up to be a doctor, in fact, being a doctor would be one of billions and billions of possibilites that God could know and will not happen because he gave man free will. Therefore, the mother has free will and can abort or not. God knows what will happen and therefore, he knows what a person will become when they are born. And David can say, “God, you knew about me and what I would become and do every day of my life, long before I was born.” Yet this has nothing to do with, when life begins.
Or did God know that the mother would abort, therefore the child could never grow up to be a doctor, in fact, being a doctor would be one of billions and billions of possibilites that God could know and will not happen because he gave man free will. Therefore, the mother has free will and can abort or not. God knows what will happen and therefore, he knows what a person will become when they are born. And David can say, “God, you knew about me and what I would become and do every day of my life, long before I was born.” Yet this has nothing to do with, when life begins.
and on, and on, and on...Originally posted by SheEagle911:
I can't believe this topic is like the Eveready Bunny going on and on and on and on......
One thing I do know. God is PRO-LIFE!
Why would God allow the killing of His creation, at whatever stage that baby is in?
That sounds like an oximoron!
Can you say Sodom and Gomorrah or Noah’s Flood?
Original sin brings with it punishment and gray areas involving life and death, this has nothing to do with God's will, other than he allows us to deal with it, since we have free will.
[ September 01, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]
sorry for the delayed response, Mr. Curtis, but certain situations deny me from getting into the net the last couple of days.
in response to what you said, i believe that the scriptures you quoted can might as well be used for my belief. there is a need for more scriptures.
in here King Solomon defines the range of life. while knowledgeable of the 9-month pre-birth period, he recognizes life to start at birth as it ends at death.
to quote another:
Job also recognizes that he cannot die prior to birth, for the reason, as implied, that there is no soul for an individual prior to birth.
thus, with the biblical definition of life starting at birth, there can be no murder prior to it.
tolerance or prevention of abortion however is another issue. and though it may be evil (but still must be proven biblically), it should be avoided calling it murder when the bible does not imply it to be like that.
Another attempt of man trying to be as God! Hmmm....where have we heard that one before? Eden perhaps?
Wow, that is quite a stretch! Biblical definition as you define one or two verses? Can we please be spared? Do you not compare Scripture with Scripture, precept upon precept? The totality of the Word of God?
So, by your definition then if Mary would have had an abortion, then that would not be murder?
I am just appalled at your last post!
What part of "thou shalt not kill (murder), do you not understand?"