confused about Calvin (Page 21) Round two

John

Mercy. I hate to tell you this, but I don't think yu know which end of the cannon is supposed to be pointed at the enemy and every shot you fire, destroys more of your stronghold.

Do you believe in "Reincarnation"???

Is everyone going to have a "Damascus road" experience, if that's the case, Let's close all churches, send everyone "down the road", those
predestine to be saved will be regardless of what the church does/doesn't do??

God knows how "terrible" hell will be, and "HIS LOVE" for man "PREVENTS" him from being "WILLING" that "ANY" should go there.

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill (evil) to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,

If God didn't love the whole world, then God didn't "fulfil the law", GOD "Transgressed the law",

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

"Most Christian based religions" use the same "Bible", but not all teach the same doctrine from that Bible, would that be true if all were taught by the same one who taught Paul, and which one is the correct one, and how can you be "CERTAIN"??

"ALL" these different doctrines have one thing in "Common", An Earthly Author, why don't they call it "GODIST", instead of "Calvinist"???

Man can "rebell" against God after being saved/chosen, but if you allow the "old man" of sin (flesh) to be "resurrected", God will allow Satan to "DEVOUR" his "Bread of life", the "Flesh".

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

God formed man of the dust, And the LORD God said unto the serpent, dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

A "physically dead Christian" can't be a "witness".

A "tree" is known by it's fruit, "Out of the Heart", the mouth speaks,

Your own words say more about you than I can.

Some people "believe" in their "head", these are the ones that say "lord, Lord", but Jesus says "depart, I never knew you",

Others believe in their "Heart", these are the ones saved.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

That same "Spirit" that called a person to be saved is the same spirit that people "quench" in it's teaching.

so why isn't it as "irresistable" in it's "teaching" as Calvin claim it is in it's "Calling"???

Does that Spirit save, then leave you "on your own", will it teach me one thing and you the opposite, both can't be right,


The "Falling away" from "Spiritual guidance" of scripture grows stronger each day, being replaced by the "ignorance" of the "Carnal mind" and "a way that seemeth right unto man".


I think many people are going to be "surprised" at Jesus's judgment of every "idle word" spoken, Having send the "Holy Ghost" to "led/guide", "ignorance" wouldn't be an excuse.

Nu 32:23 and be sure your sin will find you out.

 

The first thing you'll have to learn is that you have to have the spirit, before you can "Quench it".

But Quenching or not having the spirit both leads to "ignorance of scripture", for which there's no excuse except refusing to listen to the spirit.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,

1Jo 2:27 But the "anointing" (HG) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

There's a big different between what Calvin wrote in his book and God wrote in his.

Maybe what I'm "Really saying" is a little over your head, or your reading comprehnsion is as bad for my writing as the Bible's??

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Where did the concept of reincarnation originate, if God didn't create it, and if he did, "WHY"??

I was just trying to find out if God "FORCED" you to be saved because you were "Chosen".

I had a "CHOICE" when I was saved, and had to make/take that "first step", God's call wasn't "Irresistable", but I was still saved.

There's no such "creature" as a Hyper Calvinist, God's sovereign will for choosen the elect is 100% in effect or it is not, nothing in between.

 

You still haven't answer my "question", Did God "FORCE" you to be saved because of "HIS ELECTION", or could you have refused to be saved???

I made the point to show you there are things in scripture you don't understand, and the "Spirit" won't attempt to teach when you're "hard headed" (Dogmatic) about anything, be it Calvin/Arminian or "ANYTHING" else in scripture.

"HUMBLE AS A CHILD", and a small child will believe anything you tell/teach them, but some are so "Strong willed" (dogmatic) they'll throw a "temper tantum" rather than follow instructions,

Adult are the same, some will listen/obey the will of the instructor, others won't, and suffer the consequences, Hell.

Calvin's doctrine denies a basic momenclature of human being.

The question is; "Will God force salvation on you "AGAINST" your will"???

Calvin says God will save regardless if you "believe", "Confess" or even "Ask".

predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son,

Did God "predestine" these to be saved or to "conform to Jesus image" AFTER being saved??

Again, your reading comprehension isn't very good, here's a short list of what was "predestine".

Jesus, was the Son of God.
Matthew 8 29,
Jesus, thou Son of God.

Christians, are Sons of God.
John 1 12,
to them gave he power to become the sons of God.


Jesus, spoke the words of God.
John 3 34,
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:

Christians, speak the words of God.
John 17 8,
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me.


Jesus, possessed the Holy spirit.
John 3 34,
for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Christians, possesses the Holy Spirit.
Luke 11 13,
your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him.


Jesus, was the Light of the world.
John 9 5,
I am the light of the world.

Christians, are the light of the world.
Matthew 5 14,
Ye are the light of the world.


Jesus, performed the Works of God.
John 9 4,
I must work the works of him that sent me.

Christians, perform the Works of God.
John 14 12,
He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also.


Jesus, had the Righteousness of God.
Romans 10 4,
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.

Christians, Have the Righteousness of God.
Romans 3 22,
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.


Jesus, was God's Representative.
Matthew 10 40,
he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Christians, are God's Representatives
Matthew 10 40,
He that receiveth you receiveth me.


Jesus, Crucified for salvation.
Matthew 27 35,
And they crucified him.

Christians, Crucified for salvation.
Romans 6 6,
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him.


Jesus, sin had no dominion over Jesus.
Second Corinthians 5 21,
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin.

Christians, sin has no dominion over Christians.
Romans 6 14,
For sin shall not have dominion over you.


Jesus, was Rapture off the earth.
Acts 1 9,
he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Christians, will be Rapture off the earth.
First Thessolonians 4 17,
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

You can find the whole list here, I'd suggest reading the entire link.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html

You mean like the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" which rejected him???

Are you 100% sure God didn't send me, and how are you going to know being so "dogmatic" the Spirit can't/won't teach???

For your soul, yes, but not your flesh, and it's life can be "Shorten" by it's sins.

 

As a Calvinist (hence my screen-name), I am becoming a little confused by this thread. It seems to me that "Me4Him" does not understand that the Bible is more than just a few prooftexts pulled out of context to say something that they don't say. Just because John 3:16 (which every Calvinist holds as dear as Arminians) says "whosoever believes on Him will not perish," it does not mean that everyone has exactly the same option as everyone else. What do you do with the person who has never heard? Surely they don't have the same "freedom" to believe as those who hear the gospel every Sunday. John 3:16 simply says that everyone who believes will not perish. No Calvinist denies this. In fact, it fits nicely into what we believe the Bible teaches.

We do not deny free will. When an unbeliever makes choices, every choice he makes is according to his free will. His will, however is in bondage to sin (Romans 3:9-18; Ephesians 2:1-3) So, every choice he makes is tainted by sin. This is why he cannot choose God. It is not a physical inability, it is a moral inability. No choice an unbeliever makes will make him pleasing to God. This would be works salvation, which all Baptists claim to deny.

This is why regeneration is necessary. Pay attention to this: REGENERATION IS NOT THE SAME AS SALVATION. In theological terms, regeneration is a part of salvation. The argument is over whether it comes as a result of faith (as the Arminians believe) or before faith (as the Calvinists believe) Ephesians 2 is very important in this discussions:

Ephesians 2:1-7 And you, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

That is the nature of man. This is where Calvinists would point to discuss Total Depravity. I understood this before I ever read a Calvinist, by the way. I used to be a "synergist," believing that Christ died for me and I brought my faith to the table. This section convinced me otherwise. I am by nature a child of wrath. I am dead in my tresspasses and sins. I can bring nothing to the table, even faith. Because even my faith is dead.

Ephesians 1:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Notice what God did here. He made us alive and raised us up. That is regeneration. It is the giving of life to something that is dead. Verse 5 tells us that he made us alive when we were dead. Notice there is no mention of faith yet. And this is a doctrinal teaching by Paul. He does not forget to put in important points. When we were dead, God made us alive.

Only in verse 8 does Paul bring in faith - after we are alive. Hence, regeneration preceeds faith. Yes, we must believe. But only those who are made alive can believe and will believe. When God makes us alive, we "freely" choose to believe in Him. In fact, we can't possibly reject Him. We have new sight. We have a circumcised heart. We have new life. We don't want anything else. He gives us the desire. And we, joyfully, sell all that we have to buy the field so that we may have the treasure.

I haven't even gotten into predestination and election yet. BTW, those are both biblical terms, not something made up by John Calvin. See Ephesians 1:4-5 and Romans 8-12.

 

This is a ridiculous statement Me4Him. Have you ever read John Calvin? Can you point to the page in his institutes where he said that God will save regardless if you "believe", "Confess" or even "Ask"? The truth is that you don't know what you are talking about. You are setting up a straw man and then tearing that down.

No Calvinist says that God will force salvation on you against your will. We believe that God ordains the ends as well as the means. God uses our will to bring about our salvation. In this way, God gets all the glory, not me.

Let me ask you a question - what is it that was in you that caused you to believe that was not in your neighbor who does not believe?

 

This is all a very nice list of texts you give us. But none of these texts even uses the word "predestine!!!" How about dealing with Acts 4:27-28; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Corinthians 2:7 and Ephesians 1:4-11. These are all passages in which the actual Greek word for predestined is used. It simply means "to determine beforehand."

BTW, predestination and election are two different biblical terms and two separate theological concepts, though they are dependant on one another. Try to do a little research so you don't confuse the two.

 

How did the "young rich man" keep all the commandments, WITHOUT being saved??

We don't deny the calling of the Spirit, but we do deny that it's "Irresistable", and we can accept/reject it according to "OUR WILL".

Salvation is "Instant", regeneration in the growth process from "babes in christ" drinking milk, to "Meat eaters", a gradual "Renewing of the mind".

Calvin error was in not separating the "soul" from the Flesh, we're trapped in a "body of sin", of which the only escape is "Spiritually" through the blood of Jesus.

If you don't have "FAITH" to believe the spirit when it call to you, you'll never be saved, the whole plan of salvation is through/by the "FAITH" of people to "believe",

but calvin says "OUR FAITH" is worthless toward being saved, as you said, it's totally the "sovereign will" of God.

Better go back and reread your bible again.

"FAITH" is not "Works", faith is "HOPE", nothing more.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;

No "faith", no "Grace", God won't grant grace to an "unbelievers", and he won't force an unbeliever to believe in order to save them.

You'll "Free chose him" by "FAITH" BEFORE you get the "grace" for all of the above.

I'm well aware of the terms, but I've yet to find where anyone was "predestine" to be saved/lost, even the "Son of perdition", who been prophecied from Gen 3.

 

I "CHOSE" to believe, my neighbor didn't.

We got the "SAME CALL" from the "SAME SPIRIT", only difference in the results was "OUR CHOICES".

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

Why did you choose to believe while your neighbor didn't? Is it because you are smarter than your neighbor? If so, then you certainly do have something to boast about your salvation aside from grace.

Joseph Botwinick

 

John,

You are correct. It is a work. According to the Scripture passage you just quoted, however, it is the work of God, not man.

Joseph Botwinick

 

That is the crux of the matter. It is called free will. Read your Bible man,there are many who knew Christ but walked away because they considered the cost too great. It only [proves free will so you calvinites ought to get off that kick. The rich man knew and ackownledge Christ but whent told to sell all he bowed his heasd and walked away. There were many disciples who when the going got rough walked away from Christ.
This tryi8ng to make one man have an advantage when God has given all the chance is nothing but thumb-sucking theology. Just like calling a choice a work unto or for salvation.
If you calvies had to define and use terms like they are supose too you would have no theology!

 

So, it was because you were more intelligent or more righteous?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Well calvibaptist this is very strange to me that you think people are pulling just a few verses out of context. when the truth of the matter is tha most do not hold to the teachings of Calvin. They have read thier bibles and found calvinism too be very lacking. So don't be so proud as to say that those who disagree don't know their bibles for there are many many more who do know thier bibles and are not calvinist then those that do follow the teachings or 5 pts of calvin.

 

Is that too me? I would hope not because I answered that question. No, the rich knew Christ and rejected him for material things. As others do. The knowledge was the same.

 

OK, this reply is mainly for Me4Him, but hopefully we can all learn, myself included, a little. There are a few basic rules when arguing/discussing anything.

Rule #1 - If you are going to claim that someone in history has said something, either give the exact quote and place where it is found or say that you are summarizing. Me4Him has a habit of saying, "Calvin says" and then following that up with a statement that Calvin never said. I have already asked for the reference to his supposed statement from Calvin and have not gotten a reply, but another "Calvin says" statement. I must conclude that this is either a misunderstanding of Calvinism or a purposeful misrepresentation. If the latter is true, it is a violation of the 9th Commandment (bearing false witness). So, let's be careful out there.

Rule #2 - If you are going to use words/terms like regeneration, salvation, Calvinism, etc., make sure that you know what they mean. Get a good theological dictionary if you need it, but please don't misuse words. I causes confusion and leads the conversation down wrong paths.

I will deal with some of these areas in future posts.

Just to let all of you know, I have not always been a Calvinist. I, for most of my 36 years, believed like you do. I did not become a Calvinist by reading Calvinists, unless you include Paul the Apostle! I gradually became a Calvinist by reading the Scripture. I didn't even know what Calvinist was. I couldn't tell a TULIP tree from a cherry tree. Since then, I have read a lot of different Calvinists, but am no expert in their writings. I desire to learn, hopefully like all of you. If my Calvinism is wrong, and shown to be so from the Bible, I will gladly change. But, currently, it is what I see that the Bible teaches.