confused about Calvin (Page 21) Round two

The "justification" by Jesus is meant to apply to as many as were made sinner by Adam,

"HOWEVER"

"BEFORE" that "justification" will apply the person must "BELIEVE" by their "PERSONAL FAITH", of which they are "FREE" to chose, "belief/unbelief" and Judged accordingly.

Ro 10:9 That..IF...thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

God/Jesus made it possible for the "WHOLE WORLD" to be saved, but the deciding factor is that IF they will believe,

However Calvin states that the reason they aren't saved is "BECAUSE" God's calling isn't as "Effectual", "Irresistable" as to those who are saved,

in other words, God doesn't "ENABLE" them to be saved, but that "CONTRADICTS" the stated "INTENT/PURPOSE/GOAL of God and Jesus.

God's will/Jesus mission was to save the whole world (none perish) which Calvinism denies.

"Unbelief" is the "ONLY OBSTRUCTION" preventing God/Jesus from saving the "WHOLE WORLD".

And that "unbelief" is a "FREE CHOICE" God allows man to make, not him, just as he gave "Adam".

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,

his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Calvin places the "BLAMES ON GOD", "Predestination" for sinners going to hell, not "ENABLING THEM" them to be saved,

But the scripture say God/Jesus "ENABLED EVERYONE", on the one condition that they only "BELIEVE".

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, (believe) I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

That..IF...thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart

All means All, World includes whole world, all sin been paid, IF you'll accept the one who paid, IF not, pay yourself, the "CHOICE" is your's.

Simple.

Calvins doctrine is "backwards" to what the scripture actually teach.

 

originally posted by johnp:

I don't care if it was the son of the greatest soul-winner for God this world has ever known. If that son never makes a profession of faith and never accepts Christ as his Savior, that son will die and go to a devil's hell. Scripture is plain on that.

John 14:6 John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

A child cannot ride into heaven on his daddy's or grand-daddy's coattails. He or she must come through Christ and Christ alone.

I might also add, that if that child never makes a profession of faith, baptizing that child will do nothing but produce a wet sinner. Water baptism outside of Christ is nothing but dead works. Our righteousness is filthy rags before the Lord.

 

We cannot choose our earthly fathers, but we certainly can choose God as our spiritual and heavenly Father.

Joshua 24:15 is plain that we indeed do have a choice to either serve gods, or God.

 

You answer before I have a chance to finish answering the rest of your post!

OK. One more time. Justification DOES NOT mean the possibility of being declared righteous if you believe. Justification means that you WERE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS. I don't know how much more obvious this could be. There is not a possibility stated here, but a fact. If this verse means that justification is APPLIED to as many as were made sinners in Adam, then EVERYONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN. But that is simply not true. You cannot change the meaning of a technical theological term. Whereas you can change the meaning of the word "all" depending on context, as the list of verses I gave you in my last post should prove.

True, justification does not take place until a person believes. But who gets justified? According to Romans 8 it is those whom God predestined. I will deal with your misrepresentation of this verse in a later post.

 

Again, Calvinists do not say that human beings don't make a choice. We say, along with the Scriptures, that human beings, because of the fall, will not and cannot make the RIGHT choice apart from a miracle of God called regeneration. And once that miracle has happened to a person, they can and will make the right choice.

 

Just to show you that I don't just wave a Calvinist flag, I agree with you. I don't buy the Covenant Theology (Calvinist) view of Covenant Children. I don't find it clearly in the Scripture like the rest of Calvinism.

 

regeneration is a result of the working of the Holy Spirit "IN" a person. The Holy Spirit will not indwell a man who rejects the Son. Regeneration is after Salvation, not before.

 

Chapter and verse?

 

call upon the name of the Lord and thou shalut be saved.

Call first then comes regeneration. Man that was hard....NOT!

 

Romans 10:13-14 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

OK, Me4Him. Here are verses in which the phrase "whole world" does NOT mean every person who has ever lived since Adam.

Matthew 16:26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Obviously refers not to people at all, but to material wealth.

Matthew 26:13 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her."

Cannot possibly mean to every person who has ever lived. Nor can it even mean that every person who hears the gospel hears this story. If so, then I didn't hear the full gospel when I believed.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Was the faith of the Romans spoken of to every person who had ever lived since Adam? Was it even spoken of to every person who was alive at the time?

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

Was every person who had ever lived since Adam under the sway of the wicked one when 1 John was written? No, this obviously only refers to unbelievers.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Will the hour of trial come upon every one who has ever lived since Adam? No. It will only come on those who are alive at the time of the trial.

Revelation 16:14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Are these kings over every person who has ever lived since Adam? Do you see yet how ridiculous your restrictive definition of the phrase "whole world" is when taken in context of these verses?

What about just the word "world?"

1 Samuel 2:8 He raises the poor from the dust And lifts the beggar from the ash heap, To set them among princes And make them inherit the throne of glory. "For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And He has set the world upon them.

Refers to physical earth (globe), not people at all.

Matthew 13:22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Refers to the system set against God. Has nothing to do with people.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

Here "world" refers not to saved people or to unsaved people. Interesting.

John 1:9-10 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

The word "world" is used 4 times in these two verses in at least 2 different ways. Jesus created the world (physical earth). The world did not know him. This obviously can't refer to every person who ever lived because believers know Him. The word "world" in this context only refers to unbelievers.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

A favorite of Arminians (and universalists) to try to prove their point. But let me ask a question. If Jesus takes away someone's sins, why do they spend an eternity in hell? It doesn't say "Behold! The Lamb of God who might possibly take away the sin of the world if they will only believe."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Here is my personal view of this passage. Jesus is talking to a Jewish Pharisee. To a Jewish Pharisee, God and the Messiah were only for Jews. Jesus refutes that idea by saying that God and the Messiah are for the world - meaning Jews and Gentiles. Every race. This, in fact, is one of the major points of John's gospel. That is why many people believe that it was written for Gentiles. To show them that Christianity was not strictly a Jewish thing. It was for the world.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

Does Jesus actually give life (regenerate) every person who has ever lived? No, but neither does He only give life to Jews. He gives life to Gentiles as well - Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, Ethiopians, the World.

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

This should be obvious. Jesus is not talking about every person who has ever lived, but about those whose father is the devil.

John 8:23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Ditto above comments.

John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, "You see that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him!"

Used in a very universal sense, but definitely doesn't mean every person who ever lived. It obviously doen't include the Pharisees who were doing the talking!

OK, that's enough for now. BTW, the word "world is used 252 times in the entire Bible. It means many different things based on context. Very rarely does it mean every person who has or will ever lived.

 

Do I need to review a previous post. RREGENERATION IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO SALVATION!!!! It is a part of salvation. This is where we get when our church's don't teach theology. We start using words to mean something they don't mean.

Yes, you must call on the name of the Lord before you are saved (here saved IS justified). But a spiritually dead person cannot make a spiritual call to Christ. They must be given life first.

 

You qoute a scripture! It is right there before your eyes! Then you miss interpt it! Unbelieveable!
There are 3 options there. It says of options one...if you find serving God undesirable then choose one of your other two options. It does not say you cannot choose. JohnP who, what, where or how do you come up with this stuff. Its not going to fit your calniist theology! Hang it up!

 

I don't argue with any of these verses. But again, you are equating salvation with regeneration. Regeneration is a subset of salvation, not equivalent with. For review: The biblical concept of salvation includes, but is not limited to election, predestination, calling, regeneration, repentance, faith, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

I asked for a verse or verses that stated REGENERATION comes after faith, not for a verse or verses that stated salvation (in all these cases, justification) comes after faith.

 

Do I need to review a previous post. RREGENERATION IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO SALVATION!!!! It is a part of salvation. This is where we get when our church's don't teach theology. We start using words to mean something they don't mean.

Yes, you must call on the name of the Lord before you are saved (here saved IS justified). But a spiritually dead person cannot make a spiritual call to Christ. They must be given life first. </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah Pt me too the post I will gladly go back and read it.
Which is correct? You can be saved but not regenerated? Or you can be regenerated and not saved?

Only way a man cannot respond is if the bible says so. It says he can call!
Adam and Eve after the fall, and hiding ,heard and obeyed, and understood God. Now that sounds like responding to me. Two dead people responding to the word of God.....go figure.

 

a big AMEN! to that timtoolman