confused about Calvin (Page 21) Round two

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Thank you for using these verses, because they prove my point. If the verse in Romans 5 means that justification came to every person who has ever lived (as you say) then every person who has ever lived is saved. It does not say "possible justification." It says justification. Either we have to understand "all men" in a way that is different from the way you want to understand it or we do injustice to the meaning of the word justification.

The same situation exists for the verse you quoted from 1 John. It does NOT say "He is the possible propitiation." It says He is the propitiation. Propitiation means "satisfaction of God's wrath." Either God's wrath is satisfied or it is not. It is not "possibly satisfied waiting for someone to take Him up on His offer." You either have to understand "whole world" differently or you do injustice to the meaning of the word propitiation.

You have decided on the one, I have decided on the other. I can point to *times when "all men" and "world" mean something different than every human being from Adam until the end. Can you point to other instances in the Bible when "justification" doesn't mean "declared righteous" and when "propitiation" doesn't mean "satisfaction of God's wrath?" I doubt it.

The "justification" by Jesus is meant to apply to as many as were made sinner by Adam,

"HOWEVER"

"BEFORE" that "justification" will apply the person must "BELIEVE" by their "PERSONAL FAITH", of which they are "FREE" to chose, "belief/unbelief" and Judged accordingly.

Ro 10:9 That..IF...thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

God/Jesus made it possible for the "WHOLE WORLD" to be saved, but the deciding factor is that IF they will believe,

However Calvin states that the reason they aren't saved is "BECAUSE" God's calling isn't as "Effectual", "Irresistable" as to those who are saved,

in other words, God doesn't "ENABLE" them to be saved, but that "CONTRADICTS" the stated "INTENT/PURPOSE/GOAL of God and Jesus.

God's will/Jesus mission was to save the whole world (none perish) which Calvinism denies.

"Unbelief" is the "ONLY OBSTRUCTION" preventing God/Jesus from saving the "WHOLE WORLD".

And that "unbelief" is a "FREE CHOICE" God allows man to make, not him, just as he gave "Adam".

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,

his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Calvin places the "BLAMES ON GOD", "Predestination" for sinners going to hell, not "ENABLING THEM" them to be saved,

But the scripture say God/Jesus "ENABLED EVERYONE", on the one condition that they only "BELIEVE".

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, (believe) I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

That..IF...thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart

All means All, World includes whole world, all sin been paid, IF you'll accept the one who paid, IF not, pay yourself, the "CHOICE" is your's.

Simple.

Calvins doctrine is "backwards" to what the scripture actually teach.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

originally posted by johnp:

Are you saying the Children of the Children of God are not saved?

I don't care if it was the son of the greatest soul-winner for God this world has ever known. If that son never makes a profession of faith and never accepts Christ as his Savior, that son will die and go to a devil's hell. Scripture is plain on that.

John 14:6 John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

A child cannot ride into heaven on his daddy's or grand-daddy's coattails. He or she must come through Christ and Christ alone.

I might also add, that if that child never makes a profession of faith, baptizing that child will do nothing but produce a wet sinner. Water baptism outside of Christ is nothing but dead works. Our righteousness is filthy rags before the Lord.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

I've told you before that if you quote anyone you should make clear what the other said.

Originally posted by johnp.:

"WHY" then did Jesus die for all sins since Adam/Eve to the last person saved???

The man that screams about God's justice tells us that God accepted a sacrifice for the sins of all men given Him by His Son yet still He sends many of them to Hell. Very funny.

Stop quoting me as if I speak your words please.

"WHY" then did Jesus die for all sins since Adam/Eve to the last person saved??? Is what you wrote. As if I'd say that Jesus died for all sins! What am I to be taken for, a universalist or a person that does not understand that God can't find guilty those who have had their punishment paid for. I am not a fool you know.

The man that screams about God's justice tells us that God accepted a sacrifice for the sins of all men given Him by His Son yet still He sends many of them to Hell. Very funny. Is my reply and your response is to say the same thing again? Jesus died for all sins?

Then the God who "claims" to "love the world",

Let's rephrase that. You claim God claims that He loves everybody ever created yet we see He is willing to torture His enemies forever. Some love. You claim that God claims He loves everybody ever created yet we see that He does not say that but says clearly He loves the world.

JN 1:10 He was in the world... Becomes, He was in everybody ever created.
JN 1:10 ...and though the world was made through him... Becomes, He created everybody ever created.
JN 1:10 ...the world did not recognize him. Becomes, no one ever created recognised Him. We are all doomed. One out three, you're improving.
So you say He died for everybodies sins and yet no one recognised Him so you go in one sentence from everybody saved to nobody? Not bad, keep banging the rocks together man.

...sent his son not to "condemn the world"...

Because up to that point, PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
That was exactly the condition of the world since He had cut it off from Israel long ago. How is it that He loved the world so much He left it in the darkness for so long pray tell? And then He cut Israel off didn't He? Answer the question please. Did He or did He not cut Israel the nation off so He didn't have to condemn the world?

Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. Rom 11:11. salvation has come to the Gentiles Beat that.

What? Did the Gentiles not have it before Israel was cut off? Why no old chap, PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
What? Did salvation have to come to the Gentiles? Why yes old chap that is what the scripture says. It says salvation came to the Gentiles, read: world, as they did not have it before Israel was cut off. Same after as before, "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

How's me comprehension?

...but save it by dying for all sins...

All sins? Unbelief being not a sin then?
Propitiation means "satisfaction of God's wrath." (Calvi.) I think satisfaction of God's wrath is an amazing think to say. God has satisfied His wrath, awful ain't it? It has an hint of enjoyment about it. A need and a pleasure. Alarming to image a God like that isn't it but you just wait till you meet Him, He will either turn out like you're enfeebled Sweet Jesus or ...He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. Rev 19:15. But scripture errs surely if Jesus treads the winepress of God's fury if Jesus has already suffered God's fury for the sins of everyman ever born. Maybe He treads it for unbelief? The wages of sin is death and nothing else unless you have a secret scripture or two, unbelief, old chap, is sin.
JN 8:21 Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
The Sovereign Lord just passed a death sentence on His listeners why? JN 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father...
John 8:43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. Unable? Yes unable to hear. Do you mean they closed their own eyes and ears? No, but to this day the LORD has not given them a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. Jesus said: My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. He must have given me ears to ear with and eyes to see with man. Great ain't it? A nowhere man from nowhere land. Jesus says to me that God is my Father but to others He says, "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44. He says to them, "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." John 10:26

Can't chose our fathers can we?

john.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

We cannot choose our earthly fathers, but we certainly can choose God as our spiritual and heavenly Father.

Joshua 24:15 is plain that we indeed do have a choice to either serve gods, or God.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
The "justification" by Jesus is meant to apply to as many as were made sinner by Adam,

"HOWEVER"

"BEFORE" that "justification" will apply the person must "BELIEVE" by their "PERSONAL FAITH", of which they are "FREE" to chose, "belief/unbelief" and Judged accordingly.

You answer before I have a chance to finish answering the rest of your post!

OK. One more time. Justification DOES NOT mean the possibility of being declared righteous if you believe. Justification means that you WERE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS. I don't know how much more obvious this could be. There is not a possibility stated here, but a fact. If this verse means that justification is APPLIED to as many as were made sinners in Adam, then EVERYONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN. But that is simply not true. You cannot change the meaning of a technical theological term. Whereas you can change the meaning of the word "all" depending on context, as the list of verses I gave you in my last post should prove.

True, justification does not take place until a person believes. But who gets justified? According to Romans 8 it is those whom God predestined. I will deal with your misrepresentation of this verse in a later post.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
We cannot choose our earthly fathers, but we certainly can choose God as our spiritual and heavenly Father.

Joshua 24:15 is plain that we indeed do have a choice to either serve gods, or God.

Again, Calvinists do not say that human beings don't make a choice. We say, along with the Scriptures, that human beings, because of the fall, will not and cannot make the RIGHT choice apart from a miracle of God called regeneration. And once that miracle has happened to a person, they can and will make the right choice.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
I don't care if it was the son of the greatest soul-winner for God this world has ever known. If that son never makes a profession of faith and never accepts Christ as his Savior, that son will die and go to a devil's hell. Scripture is plain on that.

Just to show you that I don't just wave a Calvinist flag, I agree with you. I don't buy the Covenant Theology (Calvinist) view of Covenant Children. I don't find it clearly in the Scripture like the rest of Calvinism.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

regeneration is a result of the working of the Holy Spirit "IN" a person. The Holy Spirit will not indwell a man who rejects the Son. Regeneration is after Salvation, not before.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Regeneration is after Salvation, not before.

Chapter and verse?

 

[Timtoolman]

call upon the name of the Lord and thou shalut be saved.

Call first then comes regeneration. Man that was hard....NOT!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Romans 10:13-14 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[johnp.]

Hello standingfirm.

I know baptism doesn't save and outside of Christ it is just another dead work but why do you dismiss scripture so lightly?

Eze 37:25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.

AC 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

We cannot choose our earthly fathers...

No, nor your birth.

...but we certainly can choose God as our spiritual and heavenly Father.

John 1:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Flesh gives birth to flesh Can't chose your own father.
Spirit gives birth to spirit Can't chose your own Father.

Joshua 24:15 is plain that we indeed do have a choice to either serve gods, or God.

The scripture says nothing about choosing God but if God is undesirable to you then follow other Gods.

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

Joshua was one of two people who entered into the Promised Land from the Exodus. As I keep saying, But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. Dt 29:4.
And if He didn't do that then, Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
So to say they could choose God is simply wrong.

john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello standingfirm.

As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Luke 1:41.

Oh joy oh joy babies know joy! When they are saved of course.

john.

 

[Calvibaptist]

OK, Me4Him. Here are verses in which the phrase "whole world" does NOT mean every person who has ever lived since Adam.

Matthew 16:26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Obviously refers not to people at all, but to material wealth.

Matthew 26:13 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her."

Cannot possibly mean to every person who has ever lived. Nor can it even mean that every person who hears the gospel hears this story. If so, then I didn't hear the full gospel when I believed.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Was the faith of the Romans spoken of to every person who had ever lived since Adam? Was it even spoken of to every person who was alive at the time?

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

Was every person who had ever lived since Adam under the sway of the wicked one when 1 John was written? No, this obviously only refers to unbelievers.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Will the hour of trial come upon every one who has ever lived since Adam? No. It will only come on those who are alive at the time of the trial.

Revelation 16:14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Are these kings over every person who has ever lived since Adam? Do you see yet how ridiculous your restrictive definition of the phrase "whole world" is when taken in context of these verses?

What about just the word "world?"

1 Samuel 2:8 He raises the poor from the dust And lifts the beggar from the ash heap, To set them among princes And make them inherit the throne of glory. "For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And He has set the world upon them.

Refers to physical earth (globe), not people at all.

Matthew 13:22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Refers to the system set against God. Has nothing to do with people.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

Here "world" refers not to saved people or to unsaved people. Interesting.

John 1:9-10 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

The word "world" is used 4 times in these two verses in at least 2 different ways. Jesus created the world (physical earth). The world did not know him. This obviously can't refer to every person who ever lived because believers know Him. The word "world" in this context only refers to unbelievers.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

A favorite of Arminians (and universalists) to try to prove their point. But let me ask a question. If Jesus takes away someone's sins, why do they spend an eternity in hell? It doesn't say "Behold! The Lamb of God who might possibly take away the sin of the world if they will only believe."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Here is my personal view of this passage. Jesus is talking to a Jewish Pharisee. To a Jewish Pharisee, God and the Messiah were only for Jews. Jesus refutes that idea by saying that God and the Messiah are for the world - meaning Jews and Gentiles. Every race. This, in fact, is one of the major points of John's gospel. That is why many people believe that it was written for Gentiles. To show them that Christianity was not strictly a Jewish thing. It was for the world.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

Does Jesus actually give life (regenerate) every person who has ever lived? No, but neither does He only give life to Jews. He gives life to Gentiles as well - Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, Ethiopians, the World.

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

This should be obvious. Jesus is not talking about every person who has ever lived, but about those whose father is the devil.

John 8:23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Ditto above comments.

John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, "You see that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him!"

Used in a very universal sense, but definitely doesn't mean every person who ever lived. It obviously doen't include the Pharisees who were doing the talking!

OK, that's enough for now. BTW, the word "world is used 252 times in the entire Bible. It means many different things based on context. Very rarely does it mean every person who has or will ever lived.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
call upon the name of the Lord and thou shalut be saved.

Call first then comes regeneration. Man that was hard....NOT!

Do I need to review a previous post. RREGENERATION IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO SALVATION!!!! It is a part of salvation. This is where we get when our church's don't teach theology. We start using words to mean something they don't mean.

Yes, you must call on the name of the Lord before you are saved (here saved IS justified). But a spiritually dead person cannot make a spiritual call to Christ. They must be given life first.

 

[Timtoolman]

You qoute a scripture! It is right there before your eyes! Then you miss interpt it! Unbelieveable!
There are 3 options there. It says of options one...if you find serving God undesirable then choose one of your other two options. It does not say you cannot choose. JohnP who, what, where or how do you come up with this stuff. Its not going to fit your calniist theology! Hang it up!

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Romans 10:13-14 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I don't argue with any of these verses. But again, you are equating salvation with regeneration. Regeneration is a subset of salvation, not equivalent with. For review: The biblical concept of salvation includes, but is not limited to election, predestination, calling, regeneration, repentance, faith, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

I asked for a verse or verses that stated REGENERATION comes after faith, not for a verse or verses that stated salvation (in all these cases, justification) comes after faith.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
call upon the name of the Lord and thou shalut be saved.

Call first then comes regeneration. Man that was hard....NOT!

Do I need to review a previous post. RREGENERATION IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO SALVATION!!!! It is a part of salvation. This is where we get when our church's don't teach theology. We start using words to mean something they don't mean.

Yes, you must call on the name of the Lord before you are saved (here saved IS justified). But a spiritually dead person cannot make a spiritual call to Christ. They must be given life first. </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah Pt me too the post I will gladly go back and read it.
Which is correct? You can be saved but not regenerated? Or you can be regenerated and not saved?

Only way a man cannot respond is if the bible says so. It says he can call!
Adam and Eve after the fall, and hiding ,heard and obeyed, and understood God. Now that sounds like responding to me. Two dead people responding to the word of God.....go figure.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Adam and Eve after the fall, and hiding ,heard and obeyed, and understood God. Now that sounds like responding to me. Two dead people responding to the word of God.....go figure.

a big AMEN! to that timtoolman

 

[johnp.]

Hello Timtoolman.

Its not going to fit your calniist theology!

What's a 'calniist theology'?

Hang it up!

I'm sorry if you have misunderstood my status. I am a Son of the King and I take orders from my Father not men. I am a Priest of the Living God and serve Him not you.

JohnP who, what, where or how do you come up with this stuff.

From my Father where does yours come from?

May the Lord bless you.

john.