confused about Calvin (Page 21) Round two

[webdog]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Romans 10:13-14 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I don't argue with any of these verses. But again, you are equating salvation with regeneration. Regeneration is a subset of salvation, not equivalent with. For review: The biblical concept of salvation includes, but is not limited to election, predestination, calling, regeneration, repentance, faith, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

I asked for a verse or verses that stated REGENERATION comes after faith, not for a verse or verses that stated salvation (in all these cases, justification) comes after faith. </font>[/QUOTE]I think it is you and other reformed theologians who misinterpret the word "regeneration". Regeneration is justificacation, period. The meaning "renewed" or "born again" outside of justification is silly. The Bible is clear that you must be "born again" (justified). Using your misapplied definition, just the act of the Holy Spirit drawing without faith in Christ would be enough for salvation.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

If God only "enables" the elect, then he is a respecter of sinners (persons)

Eze 36:32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

A fat lot of respect there a? But I can tell He is not a respecter of persons man, look how He treats those He hates.

I came across that while I was looking for the post I have spent eternity on.

The second sentence: Or a continuation of the first, I'm not sure which.

(God) Is either A LAIR...

That He is to be sure. As proved over and over again in scripture.

Is either A LAIR or they perish "IN SPITE" of God's plan to save them. posted 16 February, 2006 16:34 page 8

God is a liar if He has control? If God is Sovereign then He is a liar. That's it? God is Sovereign. God must be willing for some to perish because He created Hell and intends to furnish it with men and fallen angels which He created knowing they would end up there so He must be willing for some to go there mustn't He? That's only logical captain. If He were not willing He would not have invented Hell would He? Or did He have no control there either? Oh no of course He is under the law. The law created it or demanded it. HaHa! Well then if God is not willing to send some to Hell and He knew, He did know didn't He, some would go there, why create them if He was not willing any should? It doesn't make sense. Has He no control over births? Does He have a blank spot because He cannot know a free will choice before it is made?

You've got to come down on one side of the fence or the other, which is it???

If there were any fences to straddle I would straddle them believe me.

There is no fence there is a word you claim says one thing and which thing you claim for it is false and illogical. Love never fails so if any go to Hell it was not love was it. 1 Cor 13:8.

john.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by webdog:
I think it is you and other reformed theologians who misinterpret the word "regeneration". Regeneration is justificacation, period. The meaning "renewed" or "born again" outside of justification is silly. The Bible is clear that you must be "born again" (justified). Using your misapplied definition, just the act of the Holy Spirit drawing without faith in Christ would be enough for salvation.

Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

One question. If regeneration equals salvation equals justification, then how could Paul tell Titus that we were saved THROUGH regeneration and renewing? AND that then we were justified? Sounds to me like they are all part of salvation. This is not theological theory. These are the words of Scripture.

And another thing...Calvinists are not the only ones who differentiate between the terms justification, salvation, and regeneration. All theologians do because, even though all are necessary for salvation, they are separate thoughts presented in the Scripture.

 

[Calvibaptist]

And by the way, so far in my posts, I have listed over 50 Scripture verses that say exactly the same thing that I am saying. And so far, in your responses, you keep accusing me of making stuff up that I supposedly heard from John Calvin.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Adam and Eve after the fall, and hiding ,heard and obeyed, and understood God. Now that sounds like responding to me. Two dead people responding to the word of God.....go figure.

a big AMEN! to that timtoolman </font>[/QUOTE]Gee, they must have been regenerated before they responded.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
The "justification" by Jesus is meant to apply to as many as were made sinner by Adam,

"HOWEVER"

"BEFORE" that "justification" will apply the person must "BELIEVE" by their "PERSONAL FAITH", of which they are "FREE" to chose, "belief/unbelief" and Judged accordingly.

You answer before I have a chance to finish answering the rest of your post!

OK. One more time. Justification DOES NOT mean the possibility of being declared righteous if you believe. Justification means that you WERE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS. I don't know how much more obvious this could be. There is not a possibility stated here, but a fact. If this verse means that justification is APPLIED to as many as were made sinners in Adam, then EVERYONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN. But that is simply not true. You cannot change the meaning of a technical theological term. Whereas you can change the meaning of the word "all" depending on context, as the list of verses I gave you in my last post should prove.</font>[/QUOTE]Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

even so by

the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The "Free Gift" came upon "ALL MEN",...IF...they'll accept it.

How hard is it to understand that Jesus DIDN'T COME TO CONDEMN

But that the "WORLD"... MIGHT BE...saved, because God loved the "WORLD"???

And he died for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD" to "ENABLE" the "Whole world" to be saved,...IF...they believed.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,(the saved) but also for the sins of the whole (unsaved) world.

1. For God so loved the world, (all have sinned, God's no respecter of persons/sinners)
2. Jesus didn't come to condemn sinners
3. died for "All sins"
4. so whole world might be saved
5. because God willed none to perish
6. "FAITH" is the only requirement for salvation.
7. "Unbelief" prevents salvation,
8. The "CHOICE" belongs "Strictly" to the individual.
9. of which God will "honor" (Judge according to their "CHOICE")
10. the "Choice" of "WHOSOEVER WILL" doesn't exist under "Sovereign will".

As I said, Calvin has it "Backwards".

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Yeah Pt me too the post I will gladly go back and read it.
Which is correct? You can be saved but not regenerated? Or you can be regenerated and not saved?

Neither is true. No Calvinist or Arminian believes that you can be regenerated and not saved. Calvinists say that regeneration happens by God's grace as the Word is proclaimed, you respond in repentance and faith to the Word proclaimed and you are justified. It most likely is instantaneous. Arminians say that the Word is proclaimed and you, a spiritually dead person, respond in repentance and faith and then are justified and regenerated. In other words, you birth yourself again. Now...is that what Jesus said in John 3?

Only way a man cannot respond is if the bible says so.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

READ THIS: No one IS ABLE (not just unwilling, but unable)to come to Jesus unless he is first drawn by the Father. But before you throw "I will draw all men to myself" in my face look at the next phrase in verse 44 - "I will raise him up at the last day." Who will Jesus raise up at the last day? The one who was drawn by the Father. Is everyone raised up by Jesus at the last day (HINT: this is the first resurrection for you dispensationalists). Answer: NO. Therefore, in the way this word "drawn" is used, there is no linguistic way it can be made to say that everyone is drawn. Only those drawn come. Everyone drawn is raised up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

READ THIS: The natural man (the one not opperating in the Spirit) not only does not receive the things of the Spirit but is UNABLE. He cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned and he is not spiritual; he is natural.

OK. So there are two very clear VERSES, not chapters out of John Calvins Institutes, that explicitely say that people are unable in and of themselves to come to (call on) Jesus, unless the are first drawn (called) by God.

Do you have any verses (not philosophical arguments) that explicitely say that men are able, without a special grace of God, to obey God's commandments. I am not asking for a verse that gives a commandment. Nor am I looking for a verse that tells people to call on the name of the Lord. Nor am I looking for a verse that tells people to repent and believe. I am looking for a verse that says that ordinary human beings are able to do any of that without God's special enabling.

It says he can call!

It does NOT say he can call. It says he is required to call. Don't assume a requirement equals an ability.

 

[Scott J]

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

even so by

the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The "Free Gift" came upon "ALL MEN",...IF...they'll accept it.

But what motivates some to accept it while others remain non-receptive?

Are those who receive better? Smarter? Wiser?

Why do those who believe do so?

This is the inescapable problem of all of your arguments... you ultimately either have to abandon your system or acknowledge that it bases salvation on some amount of individual merit.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
As I said, Calvin has it "Backwards".

And you have ignored every verse of Scripture that I have put in my posts and keep coming back with the same tired argument that "God said 'whosoever will' so that must mean that everyone who has ever lived, including Judas and Pharaoh and Pilate and Herod and Caiaphas, had the natural ability to choose correctly."

The Bible is very clear that all men choose. And all men choose wrong. Read Romans 1:18-25 again. Read Romans 3:10-18 again.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Men are blinded. Unless God gives them light and opens their eyes, they are blinded. They will never choose the truth because they hate the light. Their deeds are evil (that's at the end of John 3, by the way). How many more verses do you need?

 

[Scott J]

READ THIS: No one IS ABLE (not just unwilling, but unable)to come to Jesus unless he is first drawn by the Father.

The danger in using the word "able" is that anti-calvinists get really hung up on the thought that God somehow made unbelievers undeservedly defective in a way that makes him responsible for their disbelief.

It is not in an unregenerate person's nature to repent in faith. That nature is inherited from Adam (Romans 5) but also embraced and chosen. Adam was our representative... we would have behaved likewise.

Sinners are responsible. They do deserve God's wrath. They do not deserve God's grace... but the unregenerate spirit will very freely and quite naturally reject these truths until God performs a miracle of resurrection on their dead spirit.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Again, Calvinists do not say that human beings don't make a choice. We say, along with the Scriptures, that human beings, because of the fall, will not and cannot make the RIGHT choice apart from a miracle of God called regeneration. And once that miracle has happened to a person, they can and will make the right choice.

There's nothing in the scriptures about being regenerated "BEFORE" being saved, but there is a requirement of "FAITH" before being saved.

God's call doesn't "regenerate/save" until the person passes the test of "FAITH", then and only then, will the person become a "new Creature".

God/Jesus has "enabled" everyone to be saved..if.. they believe.

The many who are called, fail the test of Faith, only the few who pass, are chosen.

"Effectual", Irresistable" are man made words to support a doctrine not found in the scriptures.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Amen, me4Him!

 

[Me4Him]

Calvibaptist

Arminians say that the Word is proclaimed and you, a spiritually dead person, respond in repentance and faith and then are justified and regenerated. In other words, you birth yourself again. Now...is that what Jesus said in John 3?

No, calvinist say that because they don't understand that the "wages of sin is death", so how does repentance/faith pay the wages of sin to give a "rebirth"????

You "forget/leave out" to much scripture and in the process, it gets "twisted".

READ THIS: No one IS ABLE (not just unwilling, but unable)to come to Jesus unless he is first drawn by the Father.

there is no linguistic way it can be made to say that everyone is drawn.

God said he wasn't willing for any to perish, then doesn't draw some so they can be saved???

Does God lie?????

I am looking for a verse that says that ordinary human beings are able to do any of that without God's special enabling.

There was "NO PURPOSE" in dying for the sins of the whole world, UNLESS it was possible for the whole world to be saved,

Would God make Jesus die for sins that wasn't going to be "Redeemable"????

It says he is required to call. Don't assume a requirement equals an ability.

Under Calvin it does, God only calls the "elect", those with the "Ability" to be saved.

But what about the "MANY" who are called and not chosen, is that God's fault??

Calvin doctrine denies that "GOD'S LOVE" is offer to the "WHOLE WORLD" through "JESUS", and that friend is a very "SERIOUS ERROR" according to the GOSPEL.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Again, Calvinists do not say that human beings don't make a choice. We say, along with the Scriptures, that human beings, because of the fall, will not and cannot make the RIGHT choice apart from a miracle of God called regeneration. And once that miracle has happened to a person, they can and will make the right choice.

There's nothing in the scriptures about being regenerated "BEFORE" being saved, but there is a requirement of "FAITH" before being saved.</font>[/QUOTE] Yes there is...

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

New birth was not the result of man's will... but of God's.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We are begotten to a living hope... not from human will. We are kept by the power of God through faith... not be the power of our faith in God.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

He "predestined" us to be conformed (remade, reborn) to the image of Christ.... long before we had the ability to choose.

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

That "we might be firstfruits"... we were brought forth "of His own will"... before you were a "firstfruit", you were made so by God according to HIS will.

Read John 3 in context. Jesus simply doesn't say that a person must choose to be born again... He tells him that he must be born again then tells him what those who are born again will do.

God's call doesn't "regenerate/save" until the person passes the test of "FAITH", then and only then, will the person become a "new Creature".

So they must be good enough to pass a test first then God will save them, right?

Tell me... how many people do you know who asked to be born or passed a "test" before they were born.

The new birth analogy loses all of its meaning if it is made to ultimately depend on the choice of the one who experiences it.

God/Jesus has "enabled" everyone to be saved..if.. they believe.

That is an self denying statement. If God/Jesus enabled them to do something... what must be added to that ability before they can do it? You say their personal belief must be added.

The many who are called, fail the test of Faith, only the few who pass, are chosen.

So they are chosen only after they pass a test... so God saves those who are good enough, the wise ones, right? That is the direct result of what you are claiming here.

"Effectual", Irresistable" are man made words to support a doctrine not found in the scriptures.

Nope... Words to describe the truth in scripture that what God purposes to do, He will do. So when He says that He elects the saints before the foundation of the world... He will accomplish their salvation.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Rippon, nice to meet you.

Hello Me4Him.

Jesus offer to take Israel under his wings, they would not, was Jesus going against the "will of the Father" or possibily lying, if it was "predestine" for them to reject Jesus, and how can the Jews be blamed for the "Sin" of rejection if they "had no choice"??

I called your bluff on this (Matt 23:37; LK 13:34.) before and you failed to respond. I don't think you are onto a winner though.

God is not a man that He should lie. He is Sovereign, He uses other means to accomplish His will. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 2 Thess 2:11.
He causes belief in the lie.

if it was "predestine" Since it was predestined how can the Jews be blamed for their sin for who resists His will? Who are you to talk back to God? RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

They had no choice. Paul anticipates your question and answers it. God predestined those who die the death and those who live the life before either group were born or had done anything good or bad. He did it to prove He is Sovereign. To put us all in our place. We are property and property has no rights. The Despot of Despots is your Sweet Jesus man. He treads the winepress of God's fury against those He chose to destroy. I don't care what that sounds like because I do not judge God.

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Your example shows how much Calvins doctrine is out of context with the stated purpose/goal of Jesus's mission and God's will.

Here he is again? Good old Calvin. It is me talking to you and I am using scripture. What's the matter with you? You seem rabid. Fixated. It is not healthy.
Did salvation come to the Gentiles or not? And if it came, as per scripture, then where was it before? It wasn't with the Gentiles was it? Simple enough.

Tell me, since Jesus knows everything, why ... should He say He had come to save the world when He knew He wouldn't?

That's it I think.

john.

[ February 16, 2006, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

LK 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "


As I said I called you on this before. I asked you for an interpretation of 'O Jerusalem, Jerusalem', what's it mean?

john.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

What a testimony! One who has 'put on Christ' and 'put off the old man', must also 'put away filthy communication out of one's mouth'.

johnp, that phrase above was very unChrist-like.

 

[johnp.]

Hello standingfirm.

Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

I think you should explain yourself please.

john.

 

[webdog]

One question. If regeneration equals salvation equals justification, then how could Paul tell Titus that we were saved THROUGH regeneration and renewing? AND that then we were justified? Sounds to me like they are all part of salvation. This is not theological theory. These are the words of Scripture.

Two sides of the same coin. If you notice Paul's writing style, he often put's the objective symbol (washing of regeneration: baptism) before the reality.

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

Thy Holy Spirit does the renewing through faith in Christ, man submits to baptism after the new birth as an outward symbol.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Tell me, since Jesus knows everything, why the **** should He say He had come to save the world when He knew He wouldn't?

not a becoming statement from a christian.