Calvibaptist
New Member
Let's see, where do I start...
More specifically, Romans 9 is not a treatise on election, although it is a major point made by Paul in verse 11. (notice the word election is used, even in your Bible) The point of Romans 9 is, why are Gentiles being saved and Jews have rejected the Messiah (yes, I said they rejected, while others received. Get it out of your head that Calvinists don't believe this). The answer Paul gives is that God never made His covenant with all the Jews, but only with those he chose. This extends (in chapter 9) to God's showing of mercy to anyone. God chooses who He is going to show mercy to based solely on Him who calls (see verse 11). To illustrate this in a non-Jewish person, Paul uses the example of Pharaoh, whom God chose to be a vessel of His wrath. In Romans 9, God's mercy is NOT offered to the whole world, if by that phrase you mean everyone who has ever lived. It is offered to those He elects.
It's in there, you just have to read it. This is the passage that turned me into a Calvinist before I ever knew what Calvinism was.
2. I do believe that every person who has ever lived receives some benefit from the death of Christ. The very fact that they are allowed to take one more breath without being judged immediately by God is owing to the death of Christ on the cross.
When men willingly choose to receive Jesus as their Savior, it is because God sovereignly chose them first. If God does not do the work of grace in someone's heart they continue to WILLINGLY reject Him. That is what the Bible says, not me, not John Calvin.
God is never obligated to show mercy to anyone, even the one who supposedly "has faith." That is the point of the verse in Romans 9.
More specifically, Romans 9 is not a treatise on election, although it is a major point made by Paul in verse 11. (notice the word election is used, even in your Bible) The point of Romans 9 is, why are Gentiles being saved and Jews have rejected the Messiah (yes, I said they rejected, while others received. Get it out of your head that Calvinists don't believe this). The answer Paul gives is that God never made His covenant with all the Jews, but only with those he chose. This extends (in chapter 9) to God's showing of mercy to anyone. God chooses who He is going to show mercy to based solely on Him who calls (see verse 11). To illustrate this in a non-Jewish person, Paul uses the example of Pharaoh, whom God chose to be a vessel of His wrath. In Romans 9, God's mercy is NOT offered to the whole world, if by that phrase you mean everyone who has ever lived. It is offered to those He elects.
It's in there, you just have to read it. This is the passage that turned me into a Calvinist before I ever knew what Calvinism was.
I am saying that this verse is difficult for anyone if you really read it. Are you saying that God doesn't get what He truly desires? One of the things that makes God God is that He gets exactly what He wants. The problem is that not everone gets saved. There are, in theological terms, two wills in God. One is a will of desire. The other is a will of decree. God desires all to be saved and end up in heaven. However (and this is true whether you are a Calvinist or not) it is obvious that God has not decreed that everyone be saved or there would be no lost people. Since this is not case (there are lost people) this verse can be used as no proof of either free will or election. The only thing this verse could be used as a proof-text for is Universalism, which we both reject.
Again, Calvinists don't deny that you must choose. We don't deny that salvation is through faith. We don't deny that you must repent. We don't deny any of the Bible's teachings in this matter. But we also don't deny that the Bible says you are unable to unless God opens your eyes (see Lydia in Acts), breathes life into the dry bones (see Ezekiel), raises you up and makes you alive (see Ephesians 3). He only does this to the elect. When He does this, you willingly exercise faith to believe. That is the biblical picture, not the humanistic understanding that Arminianism is based on.
Wrong.
All these passages regard healing. I don't deny that these people were saved at this point, though. Nor do I deny that they exercised faith. I would just say that it is obvious that they were elect (chosen) before the foundation of the world.
God doesn't need faith. He is God. We need faith. God gives it to us. It is part of the "gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8-9.
Again, do you mean world in the sense of every living person who was alive at the time of Christ or every living person who ever lived or Gentiles as well as Jews or Satan's evil system that opposes itself to God or any one of the other many ways that particular word is used in the Bible, especially by John?
I will assume that since "predestination" is in the Bible, yet you say it makes God a sinner, then you misspoke.
1. Yes, the word "world" means different things in different contexts. Very rarely does it mean every person who has ever lived. Did Jesus die for Judas? If so, then Jesus' mission was doomed to failure before it ever started because Judas was chosen as the "son of perdition" before the world was created. Did Jesus die for those in hell? If so, then His mission was doomed to failure before it ever started because those in hell were already in hell.
2. I do believe that every person who has ever lived receives some benefit from the death of Christ. The very fact that they are allowed to take one more breath without being judged immediately by God is owing to the death of Christ on the cross.
No, because both are in the Scripture. Re-read the Greek lesson about what the words really mean.
Once again, we do not deny that men willingly reject God and that when men do choose God they do it willingly. We deny, as does the Bible, that anyone seeks God on their own (Romans 3:10-18). We deny, as does the Bible, that anyone has the capacity to understand the things of the spirit on their own (1 Corinthians 2:14). We deny, as does the Bible, that anyone comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him (John 6:44). We deny, as does the Bible that anyone the Father draws will reject that drawing (John 6:37). Read those passages again.
When men willingly choose to receive Jesus as their Savior, it is because God sovereignly chose them first. If God does not do the work of grace in someone's heart they continue to WILLINGLY reject Him. That is what the Bible says, not me, not John Calvin.
