confused about Calvin (Page 21) Round two

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
How did the "young rich man" keep all the commandments, WITHOUT being saved??

Surely, you don't mean this question? There is an entire thread on this passage on this board! The young rich man most definitely did not keep all the commandments. He believed he did. Jesus' response to him was to show him that he had not kept the commandments as he thought.

And, here is where you confuse me, what does the story of the young rich man have to do with the point I made about man's will being in bondage to sin? I gave two Scripture references (Romans 3:9-18 and Ephesians 2:1-3) that you completely ignored.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
We don't deny the calling of the Spirit, but we do deny that it's "Irresistable", and we can accept/reject it according to "OUR WILL".

So, what do you do with John 6:37?

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Do those that the Father gives to Jesus end up rejecting? No, they WILL come to Him. And they do it willingly. This is all we mean by Irresistable Grace. When we are regenerated, we come willingly.

Or what about Romans 8:30?

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

*SIDENOTE* The word "predestined is used in this passage.

Notice that all those, and only those, who are predestined are called. All those, and only those, who are called are justified. All those, and only those, who are justified are glorified. From this verse, it is clear that if you are in the first category (actually foreknown from verse 29) then you will end up in the last group - glorified. You are in that group because "He" did it, not you. This is irresistable grace.

And we DO believe it is done according to your will. Your will has been changed in order to make you willing to believe. Before your will could only choose sin. After regeneration, you willingly choose God.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Salvation is "Instant", regeneration in the growth process from "babes in christ" drinking milk, to "Meat eaters", a gradual "Renewing of the mind".

This is what I mean about understanding terms before you use them. The Bible actually describes salvation as a process. The word "salvation" is a broad term used to describe regeneration, justification, sanctification, and eventually glorification. Justification is instantaneous, but salvation is a series of things God does to make us fit for heaven.

Romans 13:11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

How does this verse describe something instantaneous when you believe? This is describing when Christ returns and our salvation is completed.

Regeneration, on the other hand, has nothing to do with the growth of a believer. That is actually sanctification. Regeneration is found in John 3 where Jesus told Nicodemus, "You must be born again." Regeneration is being "born again." The verb tense in this passage is aorist, which means it is something that happens at a point in time, not a process that takes place over time. At one point you are not born again, and then, at another point you are born again.

1 Peter 1:3 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

Notice Peter says that God has begotten us again. This is the same phrase that Jesus uses in reference to Nicodemus. And Peter says that God did it, not you. It is not a process you participate in. It is an event that God does in your life.

It simply is not possible, the way the Bible uses the word, to see regeneration as a process of Christian growth.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Calvin error was in not separating the "soul" from the Flesh, we're trapped in a "body of sin", of which the only escape is "Spiritually" through the blood of Jesus.

If you don't have "FAITH" to believe the spirit when it call to you, you'll never be saved, the whole plan of salvation is through/by the "FAITH" of people to "believe",

but calvin says "OUR FAITH" is worthless toward being saved, as you said, it's totally the "sovereign will" of God.

Better go back and reread your bible again.

I'm not even sure where to start here. In refuting what you say is Calvin's error, you make an error called Gnosticism, which was a 1st century heresy. One group of Gnostics followed the Greek philosophical teaching that man's flesh was evil, but his soul was good. Therefore, his soul didn't need saving, only his flesh. Also, it didn't matter what he did in the flesh because his soul was good. This led to all kinds of sinfulness in the church and was dealt with in its infant form in 1 John. Our entire being lies in the domain of Satan, not just our bodies. Every part of us needs new life, not just our bodies.

Your second error here is when you say "the whole plan of salvation is through/by the faith of people to believe." Ephesians 2 says that we are "saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH." It does not say we are saved by faith, but through faith. We are saved by grace. The cause of our salvation is God's grace. The means that God uses to save us is our faith. It then tells us, "and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God." This includes everything involved - salvation, grace and faith. It is all a gift of God, even our faith.

Calvin does not say "our faith is worthless." Do you have the reference where he said that? I didn't think so. Calvinists believe that our faith is the gift of God. It is not something that people drum up within themselves, it is something that God gives us.

I won't justify you last comment with a response.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Joseph.

Faith is a work according to God.

...it is the work of God, not man.

Faith is a work according to God and according to Jesus it is a work of God. Good to see you, I pray you are well?

john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Calvibaptist nice to meet you.

Do you have the reference where he said that?

Self-confessed ignorance presumes to teach us.

Calvins doctrine has put "blinders" on many people and absolutely "Destroyed" "Reading comprehension". (Me4Him)

Originally posted by johnp.: posted 28 January, 2006 02:00 (Quoted by Me4Him)
Idle words showing a depth of ignorance beyond belief. Wycliffe never put blinkers on anyone did he? You have heard of him haven't you? What is that mockery of a statement you make? Our whole Western civilisation stems from Calvin and the other Reformers putting their lives on the line for the truth to be published. Read about those days they are awe inspiring. Hero's of the faith. They threw off the darkness that had attacked the Church for a thousand years and you owe them respect and gratitude for your freedom they fought for and they risked all for Christ. Very many were burnt at the stake and worse.

The answer:

I've never read any of their "Sermons", so what they taught, I have no idea, but I do know this, one thing can be said/meant, the devil can give it a "slight twist" in the ears of the hearer and it means just the opposite, which is what I believe has happened to their "sermons".

Rule #1

Rule number one is don't expect rules or conventions to overcome Me4Him's pretentions.

Rule #2

Words have no meaning but what Me4Him says they mean. Predestination means free will. Hate means love. Atonement is made for all as reconciliation only means if you want. etc.

...but am no expert in their writings.

Nor botany.

Surely, you don't mean this question?

How did the "young rich man" keep all the commandments, WITHOUT being saved??

Oh yes he does.

john.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
How did the "young rich man" keep all the commandments, WITHOUT being saved??

Surely, you don't mean this question? There is an entire thread on this passage on this board! The young rich man most definitely did not keep all the commandments. He believed he did. Jesus' response to him was to show him that he had not kept the commandments as he thought.

And, here is where you confuse me, what does the story of the young rich man have to do with the point I made about man's will being in bondage to sin? I gave two Scripture references (Romans 3:9-18 and Ephesians 2:1-3) that you completely ignored. </font>[/QUOTE]Get used to it brother.

In fact, if you actually get ME to answer a direct question or address your points with anything other than distortion, straw men, and evasion please PM me.

I have been trying to get him to give a simple "yes/no" answer to this question for several weeks now:

"Can man acting in his free will thwart the perfect will of God?"

His answers always answer some other question that I didn't ask... and he won't say yes or no.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

"FAITH" is not "Works", faith is "HOPE", nothing more.

What hope have you man?

john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

Below is a misquote Me4Him. You should not include what you have said as if I said it. Make it more obvious in future please. I will make your point bold.

(Originally posted by johnp.osted 13 February, 2006 04:31
Hello Me4Him.

There's a big different between what Calvin wrote in his book and God wrote in his.

Maybe so but we were talking about your statement that you never question another's salvation yet you did mine. What's the matter? It is a matter of record yet you seem incapable of addressing the point. Not only did you question my salvation, a thing I care nothing about, but within a very short period you denied, without a reason to, ever doing such to anybody. I bring it to your attention again.)

Now again you fail to deal with an issue concerning your good name. You come up with that below.

]You still haven't answer my "question", Did God "FORCE" you to be saved because of "HIS ELECTION", or could you have refused to be saved???

My comprehension has difficulty understanding gibberish, below is my answer from page three last post:

I don't really mind the word 'forced'. We do resist. Arrested by God. Love me or go to Hell is also force is it not? What you got, Sweet Jesus? Does He say love me or go to Hell?
Those God elected will be saved.

Don't ignore it, it won't go away, the hook is in and you owe an explanation of the contradiction that you qestioned my salvation and then said you never do such a thing.

john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

Calvin's doctrine denies a basic momenclature of human being.

I'm very glad to hear it. What is a momenclature exactly?

The question is; "Will God force salvation on you "AGAINST" your will"???

Of course He does. the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7.

Calvin says God will save regardless if you "believe", "Confess" or even "Ask".

Does he? But I don't understand why you keep talking to me about Calvin? Calvin must have been stupid like you say if he believed that one did not need to believe what one believed I believe. As you have been challenged-back up what you say.

Again, your reading comprehension isn't very good, here's a short list of what was "predestine".
You can find the whole list here, I'd suggest reading the entire link.

Do you mean predestined? My list is smaller than yours. RO 8:29, RO 8:30, EPH 1:5, EPH 1:11. Strange bible you have where predestine appears 22 times and you believe in free will yet in my bible I have predestined 4 times and do not believe in free will. Funny old world ain't? What bible translation is that then? A most exellent verse I find is: EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will...

I said: Jesus came to find the sheep and find them He will.
Your reply is: You mean like the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" which rejected him???

You would defame the Good Shepherd sinner?

I said: Jesus came to find the sheep and find them He will. (I never really said it, God did. HaHa!)
Your reply is: You mean like the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" which rejected him???

The lost sheep cannot reject Him when He finds them can they? Is it a prerogative? Choice? One sheep one vote? HaHa!
Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." NIV.
Amended to account for a new light.
Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will not save all his people from their sins." Me4Him.
John. 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. NIV.
Amended for new light.
John. 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 Some of my sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and some of them follow me. ME4Him.

Perversion of scripture.

Are you 100% sure God didn't send me, and how are you going to know being so "dogmatic" the Spirit can't/won't teach???

Another hook I think. can't/won't teach Which way is it 'can't' or 'won't'? cannot or will not? What of Paul?

Me4Him, you said, ...but the "Professor" can't teach a "Student" who "thinks" he knows as much/more than the Professor. posted 08 February, 2006 22:42
You have changed your position. You said cannot. God cannot teach...but Paul He can teach a? The worse of sinners. Are you making it up as you go along?

I said: The Trinity dwells in me, His temple I am. He will teach what ever He wishes to teach without teaching from you. That's cool that is.

How you get to:

Are you 100% sure God didn't send me...

Is a mystery. Of course God sent you and speaks through you as He does all others. But how do you get from what I say to what you reply? Are you trying to make me implicate myself in denying your salvation? HaHa! Wrong question.

...and how are you going to know being so "dogmatic" the Spirit can't/won't teach???

I'm not dogmatic, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, etc:

Well I am a bit but what am I supposed to do when I know it all? Deny it for humilities sake?

You said: Nu 32:23 and be sure your sin will find you out.
I said: Jesus died for mine.
You said: For your soul, yes, but not your flesh, and it's life can be "Shorten" by it's sins.[/b]

(Is that the gnosticismish.) To be away from the body is to be at home with the Lord.
..."Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised." Job 1:21.

Job 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. 26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; 27 I myself will see him with my own eyes--I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

john.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Scott P and Scott J, nice to meet you. Glad to join in the fray. Me4Him, nice to meet you, too. I hope you will one day see the truth as I have.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
"FAITH" is not "Works", faith is "HOPE", nothing more.

But according to Hebrews 11, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." And then the writer of Hebrews goes on to describe what faith looks like. Read the chapter, sounds like a whole lot of things going on that are more than just hope.

Also, why does Paul mention the "obedience of faith" or "obedience to the faith?" Faith without works is dead. You are not saved by your works, you are saved by faith alone, but never a faith that is alone.

 

[webdog]

This is what I mean about understanding terms before you use them. The Bible actually describes salvation as a process. The word "salvation" is a broad term used to describe regeneration, justification, sanctification, and eventually glorification. Justification is instantaneous, but salvation is a series of things God does to make us fit for heaven.

Don't you mean sanctification?
Sanctification
SANCTIFICA'TION, n. [See Sanctify.]

1. The act of making holy. In an evangelical sense, the act of God's grace by which the affections of men are purified or alienated from sin and the world, and exalted to a supreme love to God.

2. The act of consecrating or of setting apart for a sacred purpose; consecration.

Regeneration
REGENERA'TION, n.

1. Reproduction; the act of producing anew.

2. In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.

Glorification
GLORIFICA'TION, n. [See Glorify.] The act of giving glory or of ascribing honors to.

1. Exaltation to honor and dignity; elevation to glory; as the glorification of Christ after his resurrection.

Salvation
SALVA'TION, n. [L. salvo, to save.]

1. The act of saving; preservation from destruction , danger or great calamity.

2. Appropriately in theology, the redemption of man from the bondage of sin and liability to eternal death, and the conferring on him everlasting happiness. This is the great salvation.

Salvation is not a process. If you feel this way, it is you who does not understand the definition of salvation. What "process" did the thief on the cross go through to be saved?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
I'm well aware of the terms, but I've yet to find where anyone was "predestine" to be saved/lost, even the "Son of perdition", who been prophecied from Gen 3.

So, just how many unbelievers will be conformed to the image of His Son? It is only His children who will be conformed. God pre-determined the end of their salvation. Again, salvation is not just a one-time event, it is a process that begins in eternity past with the eternal decree of God (Eph. 1:4) and culminates in our glorification where we are conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:28-30).

How many unbelievers will be adopted as sons as Ephesians 1:5 says He predestined us for? Who is predestined to adoption as sons? Those who have been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4).

Both of these phrases (conformed to the image of His Son, and adoption as sons) refer to salvation. One to the beginning and one to the end. To suggest that they don't refer to salvation is to say that these things could happen to unbelievers. This is ridiculous.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

So, this doesn't refer to the fact that Judas is lost? How is the Scripture fulfilled by his perdition (which is the same word used for "perish" in John 3:16) if this was not his destiny before he was born?

 

[quickened1]

Hello folks. Can a Calvanist tell me how he interprets scriptures where someone in the Old Testament did something good or right. For example, concerning Hezekiah in 2 Kings 18.

v3. And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. v5. He trusted in the LORD God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor any that was before him. v.6 For he clave to the LORD and departed not from following him, but kept the commandments, which the Lord commanded Moses.

How is this possible in relation to Total Depravity?

 

[Calvibaptist]

My response would be that it is possible in the same way that it is possible for someone in the New Testament. People "got saved" in the OT the same way they do in the NT and the same way they do now. The Holy Spirit regenerates, and they repent and believe. The object of faith is, and has always been, God who has revealed Himself. In the NT we have the fuller revelation of God in the person of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit has always been involved in the salvation of men. The categorical difference from OT to NT is that he permanently indwells members of the New Covenant.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I am certainly not the final authority for what Calvinists believe, but I think they would argue that this is to be understood in light of what the New Testament declares about the state of sinful man and how the chosen are regenerated which is what enables them to do good. IOW, it is God who saves them and brings them to a point of being able to do good things which are pleasing to himself, beginning with salvation. The argument, therefore, is not whether a totally depraved person could do good things or even choose salvation. The distinction between Calvinists and Arminians, as I understand it, is that Calvinists teach that mankind cannot choose God or righteousness apart from the regenerating work of God in their lives, while the Arminians teach that there is at least a little bit of good in all mankind and that they can, of their free will, choose God and righteousness without the help of God. Even some Arminians will acknowledge their own version of total depravity with the doctrine of prevenient grace. I hope this helps the discussion.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by webdog:
Don't you mean sanctification?

Salvation is not a process. If you feel this way, it is you who does not understand the definition of salvation. What "process" did the thief on the cross go through to be saved?

No, sanctification is a process, but it is only one part of salvation. As I said, the Bible describes salvation as a process. It includes election, predestination, calling, regeneration, justification, sanctification, and eventually glorification. These are all parts of salvation. Salvation began in eternity past with God's election and culminates (notice I did not say ends) in eternity future with our glorification.

Here are some samples of verses that use "salvation" in these ways:

Romans 13:11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

(If salvation is a one-time event, how can it be nearer now than when someone first believes?)

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.

These are perfect examples of salvation as a process. If "salvation" is a one-time event, how could Paul talk about the Corinthians (who were already believers) as those who are "being saved" as opposed to those who are perishing?

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Here salvation is seen as encompassing both our initial belief in the truth and our sanctification by the Spirit.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Here salvation is seen as happening at Jesus' second coming. This would be our glorification.

1 Peter 1:5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Again, salvation here is seen as talking about our glorification that is revealed in the last time.

I am not saying that salvation does not include the specific point in time when we believed and were forgiven of our sin. What I am saying is that the biblical term salvation encompasses much more than just that event. We need to try to understand everything the Bible says about a term before we build our theological grid that we all have. I have been tearing apart my grid for the last 10 years as I study more. I am not done yet.

BTW, the thief on the cross was elect, predestined, called, regenerated, repented, believed, justified, sanctified (see his rebuke of the other thief), and will receive a glorified body when Christ returns. I'd say he went through the whole process of salvation.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Sorry about that Calvibaptist. I think I was still posting while you had already posted your comments. What we said, I think, is pretty much the same thing.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Why did you choose to believe while your neighbor didn't? Is it because you are smarter than your neighbor? If so, then you certainly do have something to boast about your salvation aside from grace.

Joseph Botwinick

Will my "Belief" (faith) pay the wages of sin???

Calvinist seem to have difficulty distinguishing between "Faith" and "fulfilling the law", (death for sin) as you said, "I could boast about my salvation because of my faith".

But will my faith pay the wages of sin, if not, of what will I boast, that my faith saved me???

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

I don't find very many who have a complete understanding of the "plan of salvation", and it cuts across all denominations, some don't believe in "OSAS", Catholics believe they can "remit sin", and Calvinist believe Faith is an "ACT" that will save you.

The Devils believes, but he's not saved.

I chose to believe because I had the "FREE WILL" to make a choice, so did my neighbor,

WHOSOEVER WILL is not an option under "Sovereign will", a prime example of an "Oxymoron".

Whether we chose to believe or not, determines if God will save or not, and it's for OUR belief/unbelief we're Justified/Condemned.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned:

but he that believeth not is condemned already,

because (the reason for justification/condemation)

he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Scripture is very clear that condemnation is "BECAUSE" of a person's unbelief, not "predestination".

As I said, not many understand the "finer points" about the plan of salvation, some even believe God forgives sin.