John 3:16

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Man's choice is enabled by the sovereign choice of God who sovereignly "chose" to draw ALL mankind to Himself.

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Ken H
If you are correct, Bob, then all mankind will be saved as God cannot fail in his effort to draw a person to Himself. And if a person is drawn to God he must inevitably be saved.

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John 12:32 "I will Draw all mankind" -

IF God is right then He WILL draw all mankind.

If the cample we have from Adam is correct -then just because God sovereignly chooses to enable choice - does not mean that mankind will CHOOSE life.

The "failure" can not be cast upon God as we learned in the case of Adam. This is even more true of sinful man - who though drawn to Christ and "enabled" to choose (as a result of God's Own sovereign choice) - may ALSO not choose right JUST as Adam did not EVEN though God was sovereign THEN as well.

In Fact when contrastingn the Wide and the Narrow road it is Christ that says "FEW there are that find" the Narrow road that leads to eternal life - and "MANY" are on the road that leads to destruction EVEN though our sovereign God is "NOT willing that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3:9

And so in that future day when you see your precious daughter burning in the flames and you ask God "Could you have done ANYTHING AT ALL" - He will answer "I am not willing that ANY should perish. I LOvE EVERYONE - I died for your sins and NOT for your sins only but for those sins of the WHOLE WORLD. I also sovereignly choose to enable free will - to give the gift of choice to all my children - as I did for Adam".

Those who view Adam's fall as "the failure of Sovereign God" will also have a problem with the failure of anyone sinful - and yet Drawn to God and enabled to choose - who does not choose life.

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by BobRyan:
then just because God sovereignly chooses to enable choice

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What a sad view you have of God, Bob. Using your belief system, instead of God simply allowing those whom He knows will never repent and believe simply go on there way to hell, you have God, in essence, enabling them to do something that He knows they will never do. I am sad to say that your idea of God is very, very cruel.

And so, in your scheme, Bob, in that future day when you and all of the rest of us are burning in the flames of hell and we ask God "Could you have done anything at all - He will answer "I am not willing that any should perish. I love everyone - I died for your sins and not for your sins only but for those sins of the whole world. I also sovereignly chose to enable free will - to give the gift of choice to all my children - as I did for Adam even though I knew it was impossible of your own free will choice to ever exercise the gift of choice I gave you because of the sin nature you received as a result of Adam's sin.

Your scheme, I am sure you won't be surprised, Bob, I find to be untrue based on what the Bible teaches. I thank God that He did not leave it up to me to save myself by a "free will" choice I could never make, but by His grace He reached down and plucked me as a burning trig out of the fire.

Hallelujah! What a Savior of sinners the Bible tells us about, one Who finishes what He starts and does not leave the work only partly done.

Ken

[ November 28, 2002, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

Hi Cfolsom;
Quote from you;
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John 3:16!!! One of my favorite verses. This verse teaches eternal security and not how to get "saved"
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I couldn't disagree more with this statement; Take another look at the verse you like so much.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
There is no other way than to believe in Jesus Christ.Notice that it clearly say's "who so ever believeth in Him should not perish but have ever lasting life". How else would we be saved?

Romanbear

Peace

[ November 30, 2002, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: romanbear ]

romanbear,

Wouldn't you say that John 3:16 is an indicative statement and not a command? Elsewhere we have commands to repent and believe. Here we have a statement of the status of those who believe - they will not perish.

Ken

Hi again Cfolsom;
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Therefore, I stand with John 3:16 being and eternal security text and not a text on how to be saved. Why? Because God gives a man faith and if God has not given the faith, a man does not have the ability to 'believeth", no matter how much he is preached at our taught what God's word has to say!!!
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The free gift is not so much faith as it is being saved this is the free gift.
A good example of faith in the world;
When you sit in a chair you have faith that it will hold you up, or you wouldn't sit in it.When you drive your car across a bridge, you believe the bridge will hold you up.So much for faith. More faith in God can be given you this is true but you already have enough to believe in God.Why not you have enough in man to believe that his bridges and chairs will hold you up.
Romanbear
Peace

Hi Ken; The whole point in believeing in Jesus is not just saying I believe.It's believeing in What He told us in His word.It's believeing in His ministery.It's believeing That He is the son of God. and Of corse it's repenting as well. Isn't this part of His ministery?If we didn't believe in what He said then we would believe in Him.
Romanbear
Peace

There was a fox that need to cross a river. An aligator said "I'll take you across the river." To which the fox replied, "you will eat me!" The aligator said "no, get on my back and I will take you across." Again replied the fox, "you will eat me." Once more the aligator said, "no just get on my back you'll see." So the fox got on the back of the aligator. The 'gator and the fox got about half way across the river and the 'gator began to submerge and started to eat the fox. The fox cried out, "you said you would not eat me" and the 'gator said "I know but it's my nature"

Take away from this story, we can only do what is our nature. The Bible teached man, before he is born again/touch by the Holy Spirit, is a reprobate. Seeking only the divers lust of his heart, which every imagination of man's heart is only evil continually. (Gen 6:5)

Job 15:16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water? ......why would someone drink iniquity like water, because he likes it. That is his nature.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?.....Oh, I feel it in my heart. Are we sure. The heart will lead us astray, while the BIble is a light unto the child of God's feet. Our heart is described as a cold and stoney heart. God said HE would replace it with a heart of flesh.

Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. ......Where do all these things come from, fom within man's heart. So how can man choose anything which is good and Holy. He canot until God changes his heart.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. ......the carnal mind is the same as the unchanged heart. Unless God regenerates/borns again a man is not going to follow the things of God. Why? Because he canot! It's as simple as that.

Faith comes from God. To learn what faith is study Hebrews 11:1-3.

If man says he did anything in the salvation plan. Any man, layperson preacher or anybody else, they are taking glory away from God. God does not and will not share HIS glory. In eternal salvation, God left nothing for me or you to do. HE did it all through Christ Jesus, my Lord. AMEN!!!

Changed like Saul,

Elder Chris Folsom

Hi Cfolsom;
Quote from you
("If man says he did anything in the salvation plan. Any man, layperson preacher or anybody else, they are taking glory away from God.")

Can you show scripture to support that a man believing on his own is taking away the glory from God.You haven't so far. Can you show scripture that shows we have to be born again before we can believe? You haven't so far.what you are doing is you are taking scripture and interpeting it to say this.Scripture doesn't need to be interpeted your thoughts on what it is saying is not important to anyone but you. only God's Word is important. Please don't misunderstand I would like to read from scripture what you are saying if scripture doesn't say it. Then it's not so.It's just an idea John Calvin had.You see I'm not arminian, I'm not a calvinist, I'm a Christian who only follows the teachings of Christ and not that of man.
Romanbear
Peace

I point out John 3:19 again to Mr. Folsom

that kosmos there aint elect only

As to romanbear - despite my shudderings over it - I have come to accept some form of prevenient grace - mainly God's Word never void - so everyone affected. No person believes without a little "nudge"