John 3:16

I would respond that you're asking the wrong question. If "ability" was the issue, God wouldn't have cursed creation such that we start out without the ability to be righteous on our own steam (by the law).

 

"For the creation was subject to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope..."
- Romans 8:20

 

Yes, it is my sin nature. I was born a sinner. I transgressed with Adam. When he fell into sin, so did I.

Ken

 

God loves ALL -

Adam fell and was LOST - So did Go LOVE Adam when Adam was created EVEN though He knew the life of suffering Adam would lead?

Seeing the future did not prevent God from Loving Adam or even from Loving the Angel Lucifer.

God IS Love.

God So LOVED the World that He Gave His only Son -

Yes God loves those in hell.

Oh - but He rejected them - He forsook them?

Matt 23:37 "Oh Jerusalem... how I WANTED to gather your children... but YOU would not.. behold your house is left unto you desolate".

Luke 7:30-34 "They rejected God's Purpose for them. .. We played the Flute you did not dance... we sang a dirge but you would not weep"

2Peter 3:9 "God is not Willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance"

God "Brings salvation to ALL" Titus 2:11.

Ezek 18:31-32 "I HAVE NO PLEASURE in the death of ANYONE".

The view that God looks on gleefully as your child writhes in agony throughout all of time - is not the view scripture paints - and that's a good thing.

When a parent tends to the wound of a child - even though it hurts that child it is for the best.

God is both just and Loving.

When an owner executes a horse that has irreparable damage - it is out of love as much as anything else.

When a parent allows a child to go off to fight in a war - and loses that child - it is not out of hate - nor does it mean that they did not love that child.

These are all scenarios in THIS life where allowing or causing pain to someone - does not require the ceasation of love.

Yes - God "IS Love" 1John 4:8

God's Fire and Brimstone are "real" and they burn real people - causing real people pain and suffering Rev 14:10 But Christ and all His holy ones are there for the whole thing. "IN the Presence of the Lamb and of His Holy Ones".

Even as saints - Loved by God by all acocunts - even by those who declare that God is hate - or God is Wrath - yet what does He say??

Matt 10:28 "FEAR Him who is able to Destroy BOTH Body And Soul in Hell".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Okay, then you are responsible. Someone must be responsible as the milk did not spill
itself.

Yes, I am a daddy. We several children. They all have four legs and a tail. And when one of our dogs knocks over a water bowl, he/she is responsible. And I clean up the mess.

Hallelujah! God, my Father, cleaned up my mess for which I am responsible.

Ken

[ November 20, 2002, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

The bottom line is election is always unto salvation(God saves His people), free will is always unto damnation(man damns himself by his choice of sin).

Ken

 

Interesting that the Scriptures even speak of angels with the thought of "elect" and "non-elect" in mind.

Rev. G

 

Psalm 11:5 - "The LORD tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. Upon the wicked He will rain coals, fire and brimstone and a burning wind; This shall be the portion of their cup."

It is a VERY good thing! I'm glad that isn't what Scripture teaches, nor what "Calvinists" believe.

We "Calvinists" haven't declared "God is hate." We have stated, however, that God "hates" and that He does pour out His wrath. There is a massive difference between these assertions.

Rev. G

[ November 20, 2002, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

 

In that case, then anyone God does not love at the beginning of their life is out of this world, because "God so loved the world..."

This is not what the writer to the Hebrews says:

By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
11:20

however

See to it that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears.
12:16-17

NOW take a look at Malachi 1:3
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the Lord says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

In other words, at first there WAS an inheritance.

If you go back to Genesis 25, we can see what the Lord actually said about the boys before they were born:
"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger."

I see no hate here. Only a prophecy of the future of the two boys in relation to each other and the fact that both will be progenators of nations, which means Rachel is going to have a BUNCH of grandkids and great grandkids! If God had indicated hate at this point, Isaac would not have blessed both his sons, which Hebrews 11 says he did.

Thus, when Paul talks about the boys in Romans 12, the only thing Paul says stands by God's decree ahead of time is that of the two nations Rebekkah was carrying, the older would serve the younger. Then there is a period. The sentences break. Paul then adds the Malachi verse showing what that meant and what God did regarding that. The writer to the Hebrews explains why: Esau was godless.

It was not a capricious move on God's part that makes no sense to us at all. The reason is given.

You are using 'chance' with a different meaning than we intend. Please consider the word "opportunity" instead -- because you are right when you say God is not a God of chance, but of purpose. This is the same God who declares that He is not willing that ONE should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance...

The Bible answers you:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 3:16-18

In other words, each man has a say in the matter of his eternal destiny.

The 'us' in your quote is born again Christians. Please stay in context.

Every man does receive enough knowledge of the truth to either accept it and follow, in which case the Father will lead him or her to Christ, or to reject it. Romans 1. Romans 2. And the rest of the Bible as well. Jesus, in the meantime, atoned for all sins. But via a person's choice of non-belief, the person is allowed to refuse that.

Well, I'm not an Arminian, but on this internet my husband and I do indeed go out into the world. We also go on speaking tours because of his research into the speed of light ( see www.setterfield.org ) and its indication of a very young universe, exactly as the Bible says. We receive letters from students and professors around the world thanking Barry for his work and me for my writing. We have standing invitations to speak at any Capernwray campus in the world
http://www.capernwray.org.uk/index2.html

and have received invitations from countries in Europe, Africa, Asia, and of course here in North America. The gospel is always a part of his presentation, and the response we get from Christians and non-Christians is incredible.

We also are funding, from our own monies a Zimbabwean medical student through medical school. His financing dropped off the far side of nowhere when the political/financial system there collapsed a few years ago. He is a student at the University of Adelaide in South Australia and a fine Christian man. His plans are to take his family back to Zimbabwe and open a medical clinic there.

Any other questions?

Thank you for your kind words. We are doing everything we know how to do with all the resources we have, all of which are the Lord's.
We don't just go the extra mile, fella, we go the extra ten to twelve thousand miles. Jet lag is a familiar feeling. So is wondering if we will be able to pay all our bills from month to month. But you know something? The Lord is faithful and always there is money from someone and help, too.

And we are both totally anti-Calvinism. Neither are we Arminian or Pelagian or semi-Pelagian either. We simply endeavor to be biblical Christians.

Now, what have you done?

[ November 20, 2002, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

Helen:

Let me commend you and your husband for your evangelistic work and for your missions support.

Rev. G

P. S. (You are a semi-Pelagian, though, in some respects. )

 

It is in debates such as these that I thank the good Lord that he has revealed the truth to me. Thank you God for allowing me to be a Primitive Baptist. Thank you Lord for having me believe that my salvation does not depend on my works, but on the work of Jesus Christ! I really doubt that anyone on this thread will change their viewpoint, but many angry feelings are being made. It just about turned my stomach to see some of the responses on this thread. I think everyone needs to take a step back, take a breath, and think about what you write before you write it. Remember, it's hard to take something back once it's already been posted. Anyway, to add my two cents to this matter, people may have different viewpoints on whether they believe all are saved or some are saved or all are saved but they need to accept that salvation, but I know that I will sleep very well knowing that salvation is not up to me. Maybe one day God will choose to reveal that to some others out there, I don't know, but I DO know that I don't live my life worrying about whether God saved me or not. If I'm saved, I'm saved, and if I'm damned, I'm damned. There is nothing anyone can do to change that, no matter if they think they can. My mother has a friend who is always worried when someone she knows has died. She wonders, "Is there something I could have done to turn them to Christ? Were they saved?" My answer to her is, "I don't know, and God has blessed me not to know." Think of it this way, if God revealed to me who was or was not going to Heaven or Hell how could I live around those people? Could I bear the fact of knowing that a person I knew was going to Hell? Propbably not, but God has promised not to put anything on us that we can not live through. This may sound off topic, but it fits in. If it was up to me to save myself, then how could I succeed in the place where Adam, who walked and talked with God, failed. I am not any better than Adam was. For that matter, I am not any better than Esau, but God chose to give the life of His Son for mine. What a feeling to believe that God loved me this much. ABBA FATHER!!! Anyway, my main point is God loved Jacob and He HATED Esau!! Jesus says, "...this is the will of Him that sent me. All that the Father hath given me, I should lose NOTHING." If everyone is saved, then Jesus can not lose them, so they all go to Heaven. NO This can only mean that Jesus died for His elect, chosen of God. Paul says in Revelations that they are innumerable. The words Elect, shosen, and few don't necessarily mean what we take them to mean. The word few refers to those that are the elect children of God that will be in Heaven. Please forgive my ramblings, my brain thinks faster than my fingers type(both of them).Hee, Hee! All summed up, Jesus saved ALL that the Father gave Him, and will not lose even ONE! FACT---Jesus came to die for a certain "world" of people. That "world" consisted only of His children, and ALL that He died for WILL be with Him in Paradise. Now I can go to bed. God Bless You All and Good Night. Bro. James

 

Bro. James Reed:

Welcome to the Baptist Board (I suppose you will read this tomorrow since you have already gone to sleep).

No, I don't know who the elect are, but I'm going to make sure that the Gospel gets out to all. Amen?

Rev. G

 

I would respond that you're asking the wrong question. If "ability" was the issue, God wouldn't have cursed creation such that we start out without the ability to be righteous on our own steam (by the law).</font>[/QUOTE]Never would I for a moment accept that we have an ability to be righteous on our own steam. The question I'm asking is how can we be made responsible for accepting Christ's righteousness when we're already pre-programmed not to accept it?

I question the validity of Ken's banking illustration because Ken had the ability to get a loan or not - therfore, he's genuinely responsible for any ramifications.

Jacob

 

Seems like a dangerously passive attitude to me. Could this be a logical extension of Calvinism?

I would say this is a healthy thought process. I have had these same thoughts in the past and it has motivated me to as Paul says "make the most of every oppurtunity".

Jacob

 

People do not reject Christ because they are "pre-programmed" to do so. People reject Christ because they love sin and self more than they love God.

I really liked Ken's analogy. Ken: good one!
Let's examine it a bit more closely. Ken, correct me if I go out of bounds with your analogy, okay?

Analogy: There is a debt in millions, owed by "Ken."
Truth: ALL have a "sin debt" ("for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23). What is the result of debt, namely "sin debt"? "For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

Everyone is morally bankrupt. Everyone is responsible for their bankruptcy. They aren't responsible for not being able to get a loan, but for incurring debt.

The problem is not the inability to receive the loan. The problem is the debt that the individual has created himself/herself.

Analogy: An individual is able to get a bank loan.
Truth: Jesus did more than give a "loan." He paid the debt in full for those who believe upon Him alone to do so.

Are you with me, Jacob?

Rev. G

 

I see nothing in your post that answers the primary question concerning the love of God. What does Isaac blessing Jacob and Esau by faith have to do with God loving or hating Esau? Romans 9:11-13 is clear God hated Esau before he did any good or evil. Since you prefer the term "opportunity" instead of "chance," why then, does God not give every man without exception an "opportunity" to be saved if He loves every man without exception? After all, He is not willing that any of mankind should perish, right? Common sense teaches otherwise. You never actually answered John 11:52 where it clearly states that Jesus died for those whom were already designated as children of God before He died. Your efforts to make a success out of the atonement of our Lord are most commendable, although most of the missionary priestcraft you are affiliated with began with the Romish church and was never entertained in the churches of our Lord in centuries past. What have I done, you ask? Paul wrote, "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" (Eph. 4:11, 12) I do not see anywhere in this passage the office of "missionary." The offices listed here by Paul are "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." Nothing in there about "making" chidren of God. Ministers are shepherds who "feed the flock of God" until the "Chief Shepherd shall appear" (1 Pet. 5:2, 4). Maybe if ministers labored more in their churches instead of elsewhere there would not be so many dead, cold churches in the world.

 

Bro. James, I have to agree with our friend Jacob on this. The Scriptures declare:

"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Therefore I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know them, and are established in the present truth."
- 2 Peter 1:10-12

Passivity is not a logical extension of "Calvinism" ("Hyper-Calvinism" - yes). The logical extension of "Calvinism" is unbridled zeal that is active. Look at the Protestant Reformation, the Modern Missions Movement, etc., etc. Lorraine Boettner covers this well in his work, 'The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination'.
http://www.ccel.org/b/boettner/predest/default.htm

Rev. G

[ November 21, 2002, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

 

And so your precious child is writhing in the agony of Hell (In the Presence of the Lamb and all His Holy Ones - Rev 14:10) and God says "yes - I hated her before she was even born. And now there she is - receiving my Wrath - for I AM Wrath toward Her just like I AM love toward you - lucky you - arbitrarily selected to be among the FEW of Matt 7." And of course you respond "Well at least I am doing fine - How wonderfully gracious!"

Are we really stuck with Calvinism's view of God?

As it turns out - no text says "God hated Esau before he committed any good or evil act" Not EVEN Rom. 9:11-13. But with a little re-writing and tweaking Romans 9 can be bent to say that if you don't pay attention.

What it "actually says" is that God assigned the Birthright BEFORE Esau was born - explicitly as "The Older shall serve the Younger". That is spoken to Rebekah prior to their birth just as stated.

But THEN after the choices of Esau and Jacob AND after the choices of generations of their descendants - God argues in Malachi 1:1-6 against the charge that He hates Jacob (in His actions toward Israel ). That is where you see the statement about Esau and it refers to the nation - Edom - that are the descendants of Esau. Their rebellion and their abandonment.

What you do not see - is the faithful obedience of Edom - yet still - arbitrarily abandoned by God.

In fact even with the specific case of Esau - he gets ALL of the inheritance of Isaac - except for the future spiritual birthright and eventual national promises to Jacob's descendants - long after both of them have died.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 21, 2002, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

quote from todays devotional thought ya'll might like this
November 21
"It is Finished!"

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I have finished the work which You have given Me to do —John 17:4

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The death of Jesus Christ is the fulfillment in history of the very mind and intent of God. There is no place for seeing Jesus Christ as a martyr. His death was not something that happened to Him—something that might have been prevented. His death was the very reason He came.

Never build your case for forgiveness on the idea that God is our Father and He will forgive us because He loves us. That contradicts the revealed truth of God in Jesus Christ. It makes the Cross unnecessary, and the redemption "much ado about nothing." God forgives sin only because of the death of Christ. God could forgive people in no other way than by the death of His Son, and Jesus is exalted as Savior because of His death. "We see Jesus . . . for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor . . ." ( Hebrews 2:9 ). The greatest note of triumph ever sounded in the ears of a startled universe was that sounded on the Cross of Christ— "It is finished!" ( John 19:30 ). That is the final word in the redemption of humankind.

Anything that lessens or completely obliterates the holiness of God, through a false view of His love, contradicts the truth of God as revealed by Jesus Christ. Never allow yourself to believe that Jesus Christ stands with us, and against God, out of pity and compassion, or that He became a curse for us out of sympathy for us. Jesus Christ became a curse for us by divine decree. Our part in realizing the tremendous meaning of His curse is the conviction of sin. Conviction is given to us as a gift of shame and repentance; it is the great mercy of God. Jesus Christ hates the sin in people, and Calvary is the measure of His hatred.



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Oswald Chambers was born in Scotland and spent much of his boyhood there. His ministry of teaching and preaching took him for a time to the United States and Japan. The last six years of his life were spent as principal of the Bible Training College in London, and as a chaplain to the British Commonwealth troops in Egypt during World War I. After his death, the books which bear his name were compiled by his wife from her own verbatim shorthand notes of his talks.

For more information on the life of Oswald Chambers, click here.
For a list of more books by or about Oswald Chambers, click

[ November 21, 2002, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: wjrighter ]