The Calvinist and Revelation 7:9

I don't see how this relates to Calvinism at all, personally. I don't want to hijack the thread, but IMO, the real significance of this passage is that these people are the ones who have been raptured out of the great tribluation on the Day of the Lord. (The pre-wrath rapture view.)

 

God has saved and will save Jews and Gentiles in countries and among people groups from all over the earth.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 24, 2002, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

That is exactly waht Calvinists would say: We believe that God is saving people from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation. That is the world.

 

In fact, that is sort of a parallel passage to Rev. 5:9: Worthy art Thou to take the book and break it's seals; for Thou wast slain and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. And thou hast made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they shall reign upon the earth.

This passage to me seems to be proof of particular redemption...

Anyway, I am curious as to why you think your verse contradicts Calvinism.

 

This is a great verse! And Revelation 5:9 is one of my very favorite verses in all of Scripture! These parallel Daniel 7:13-14, where it shows that the Father is giving people to the Son from every tribe, tongue, people and nation! With this in mind, the passages in the NT that speak of the Father "giving" people to the Son makes sense - especially those verses in John. This is completely in line with Reformed Theology. It also makes us aware that the Great Commission is going to be fulfilled, because Christ is with us and He will make sure that the work of evangelism is successful! Praise God!

Thanks for bringing this up!

Rev. G

 

My question is, "How does an 'Arminian' explain this?" If everything is left up to humanity, how can we know that there will be people from every tribe, tongue, people and nation / language is going to choose Christ? It's an uncertainty!

As an orthodox Protestant, I'm positive that this will take place. Here's why:

Daniel 7:13-14 - "I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed."

John 6:37, 39 - "All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. . . . This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

John 10:26-29 - "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."

John 12:32 - "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

John 17:2 - "As You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him."

Matthew 28:18-20 - Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Revelation 5:9 - And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation..."

It was this line of thinking that spurred the modern missions movement, by the way. If 'Arminianism' is so concerned with soul-winning, why is it the Modern Missionary Movement was started by Calvinists and the greatest soul winners in the Church (prior to the advent of Finney, and with the exception of John Wesley) have been Calvinists? Why is it that the very first missiologists were Calvinists? Why is it that the first Protestant missionary to the Muslims was a Calvinist? It is because we are commanded to make disciples of all nations, and we are sure that God will do His work!

Rev. G

Rev. G

 

Rev G: I'm under the impression that the whole free will evangelism movement started with Finney, didn't it? Isn't that whow Billy Graham emulates? Billy Graham is wonderful, so don't misunderstand what I'm saying - but what little I've read implies that Finney was a charismatic speaker whose free will message appealed to a lot of listeners, and so he won a lot of "converts." After that, people tried to emulate him, reasoning that they'd "win" more souls that way. Please correct me if I've got the wrong impression of history, because I'm not certain about any of this.

 

My question is, "How does an 'Arminian' explain this?" If everything is left up to humanity, how can we know that there will be people from every tribe, tongue, people and nation / language is going to choose Christ? It's an uncertainty!
[/B]</font>[/QUOTE]We answer it very simply. The passage does not say whither Christ chose through salvational election or a freewill response. That's your problem, projection theology. God said this, so it must mean that.

Also. Why do you feel it necessary to attribute misconceptions to your opposition in order to advance your theology? I am unaware of any theology that says that all is left up to man. The fact that you must exaggerate to the point of absurdity in order to promote your theology in reality presents a problem for the validity for your theology.

Not a single passage that you have posted even remotely suggest nor indicate salvational election, irresistible grace nor any other premis upon which your theology stands. Just more of, if the bible says that, it must mean this..

Where is your foundational passage.

Here is my foundation.
Rom 10:8-17
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

(Verse 8,) the word of faith that we preach (verse 9.) that “IF” thou shall confess with thy mouth, etc, etc. Thou shalt be saved. [/b]Notice that it did not say, if thou hath been elected[/b] (verse 10) For with the “HEART” man believeth unto righteousness. notice that it does not say, with irresistible grace”. And with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation. Wow!! A confession. Even in our courts today, are confessions obtained under force of power admissible?

(Verse 11.) “Whosoever believeth”. Notice, it does not say, whosoever is forced to believe. This is again reinforced in verse 13. The concept of caste is eliminated in verse 12, 13, 14. There is no special group that is above all others. That includes YOUR SO CALL ELECT. They are a myth, not real. A fabrication.

So then faith cometh by hearing. By hearing. “NOTICE IT DOES NOT SAY BY ELECTION”. If God had meant by, “faith cometh by election”; I think that his vocabulary is sufficient to have stated such.

Where is your sure foundation. NO PROJECTION THEOLOGY FOR ME.

I have come to expect more of you. Can we attribute this to a momentary lapse in judgment.

[ October 25, 2002, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

Rom. 9:6 - But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel.

Rom. 9:16 - Do then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

ROM. 10:8-17

Rom. 11:5-8 - Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were hardened. Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day."

James 1:18 - Of His own will He brought us forth, by the word of truth...

 

Have you ever heard of Pelagianism?

Also, I thought you believed that to be saved a man must exercise his free will. So doesn't that mean that the ball is in man's court now, so to speak, and it's left up to man to repent and believe or not?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Have you ever heard of Pelagianism?

Also, I thought you believed that to be saved a man must exercise his free will. So doesn't that mean that the ball is in man's court now, so to speak, and it's left up to man to repent and believe or not?

Ken
A Spurgeonite</font>[/QUOTE]No, the ball is not in man's court now. God is constantly working in the lives of men to bring them to a saving knowledge of his grace.

We both accept that all is of God, it's just that there is nothing in scripture to indicate that God works irresistibly in one person's life to the exclusion of others.

It is still the drawing and calling of God that initiates the change, yet the persuasive aspects of salvation are not irresistible nor are they a respecter of persons. That includes your so called elect...

This is what i see in scripture...

 

Doesn't the Bible refer to those saved as the elect? That's means an election had to take place. So does man have the prerogative to elect himself? That would make as much sense as claiming that man can bring about the new birth by birthing himself.

No, the clear teaching of Scripture is that God does the electing and God brings about the new birth. Man cannot make these happen.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 25, 2002, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Clear teaching. Huuumph!!!
Yes, election did occur. All those in Christ were elected to salvation. How we are placed in Christ is where things go haywire for your cause.

You believe that God stuffed the ballot box: I do not. God chose the criteria {faith} and set the consequences. (heaven or hell) All men are allowed to make one decision in respect to their own pesonal destiny.

God is not a puppetere. How & why you think that this glorifys God is beyond me. And God did not create a race of puppets.

Is this how you treat your children, like puppets? Are they allowed to make even the smallest decision. When they do, do they rob you of your sovereignty and your glory....

 

I thank God that He "stuffed the ballot box" as I know if He had not chosen me, I would never have chosen Him.

I do not have children, I have dogs. I am "sovereign" over them. I am alpha, the leader of the pack.

Ken
A Spurgeonite and Performance Dog Trainer