Sexual Abstinence

I was a virgin when I was married. So was my wife, my wife brother, his wife, my parents, all of our parents, and so far all of my friends who are not married are still virgins(that I know of).

We are teaching our kids the same.

I have not heard a Pastor preach on this in a dogs age. Why do you think that is?
Do you think the Church should teach "Sexual Abstinence"?

Saint John

Originally posted by John3v36:
I have not heard a Pastor preach on this in a dogs age. Why do you think that is?

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I don't know. As long as I remember, my current pastor hasn't preached on it as the main topic of a sermon, but it comes up from time to time in sermon texts. When it's there, he expounds the Bible's teaching on sexuality.

Do you think the Church should teach "Sexual Abstinence"?

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Yes... but I think churches should teach openly about all major sexual issues without being squeamish about it. It seems the church in America has made sexuality either an obsession or a topic of shame, at that, in my opinion, has made American Christians spiritual novices in the theology of sexuality. It seems the only time I hear about sex from mainstream pulpits in when preachers are ranting about the "homosexual agenda" or heaping "condemnation on our condom nation". Instead of holding an unbiblical prudishness about sexuality, perhaps the pastor should preach on the Song of Solomon without allegorizing it.

As far as abstinence goes, too many Christians seem to think it is an unrealistic ideal. I dated my love for 6.5 years before we married and we abstained from sex. Sometimes it wasn't easy, but it was not as difficult as you might think. I think the problem is lack of communication. If you and your steady date don't talk about sexual issues and boundries and have a similar commitment toward sexuality before marriage, you are heading for big trouble. When the two of you make an agreement to abstain (and to hold each other to the commitment), it becomes *much* easier. In fact, it frees you up because the issue is "settled" and you don't have to obsess about it. It gives you the opportunity to think about something other than the your date's body.

A recent post on this subject indicated that a pastor on this board often tells couples who are planning to marry that there is "less sex after marriage". While that may be true if a couple has unfortunately disobeyed the God's directions for sexual discipline, it is certainly not true for couples who have abstained. I have heard that premarital sex often leads to less satisfying marital sex, so the pastor's comment may be realistic. But if one abstains before marriage, perhaps the marital pleasures are enhanced because of the joy of a lifetime commitment to the one to whom you are giving yourself. If you can be certain that your marriage is built on something other than sexual activity, then "performance issues", loss of beauty and other common marital woes can be handled in a less stressful, more supportive environment.

I'll shut up now.

Our pastor had a great message about 6 months ago on sexual purity. Everyone who still has red blood cells in his body should hear it.
Abstinence is the only right way!!! "Reality" is not supposed to dictate our positions on anything.

BB,

I'm that pastor, and the comment was based on the fact that every couple I see hasn't waited.

I do think it's a positive thing to reserve a level of physical intimacy for the person that you marry, but I certainly don't think it has a significant impact on the overall health of the marriage. Preferrable, but not essential.

Joshua

My pastor has spoken regularly on the value of sexual purity until marriage, so I don't see it as a non-covered topic. Maybe others dont' speak on it as much, and I just happen to be lucky.

NOTE TO ALL: Please, please, please, let's discuss this subject without a bunch of namecalling and prideful condemnation of "liberal", "fundamentalist" or "moderate" teachings/lifestyles. I would like to have a serious and detailed discussion of this subject without a bunch of theological grandstanding. Everybody has been great so far, but it always seems to happen. Thanks!

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua:
I'm that pastor...

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I knew who said it... but I just wanted everyone to think about what was being said instead of automatically putting it into the context of "typical liberal thinking". You tend to be a lightning rod here and I would rather deal with *what* is being said instead of *who* said it.

...the comment was based on the fact that every couple I see hasn't waited.

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*Every* couple? That's very troublesome. I know that many, many "conservative" Christians don't exercise sexual self-control, even/especially the ones who obsess over it, but I'm surprised that your "liberal" church members are so active. Could it be that my "moderate" friends and I are abnormal in this regard?

What do you teach about sexual activity before marriage? What does you church consider sinful sexual expression outside the bounds of marriage? (I'm not trying to catch you at anything, but I'm trying to figure out if your church condones sexual activity before marriage or if there is some other reason why the couples you minister to are uniformly sexually active before marriage.)

I do think it's a positive thing to reserve a level of physical intimacy for the person that you marry

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At least... There is certainly nothing wrong with snuggling and some passionate kisses in the proper context, but I suspect you are talking about something more than that...

...but I certainly don't think it has a significant impact on the overall health of the marriage. Preferrable, but not essential.

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It would be a very difficult thing to "prove" according the standard scientific procedures. But it makes sense to me that those who wait will generally have better sex lives.

I think you would agree with me that sexual expression is a very powerful thing and should not be treated carelessly or lightly. Right?

[ October 18, 2002, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
I think you would agree with me that sexual expression is a very powerful thing and should not be treated carelessly or lightly. Right?

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Certainly. I do, however, think the obsession some people have with virginity is probably a bit unhealthy.

As for the weddings I have done, I've never done one for a church member. I do about six weddings a year, and they have been for people I knew in college, friends, referrals from friends, attendees at past weddings I have done, or people I have met through doing chaplaincy. As a result, the coulple whom I have married encompass a fairly diverse group ranging from fundamentalists to liberals. This is also true for the many dozens of couples whom I have counselled as a chaplain and a pastoral counselor.

I'm still waiting to meet a couple who waited.

Joshua

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua:
BB,

I'm that pastor, and the comment was based on the fact that every couple I see hasn't waited.

I do think it's a positive thing to reserve a level of physical intimacy for the person that you marry, but I certainly don't think it has a significant impact on the overall health of the marriage. Preferrable, but not essential.

Joshua

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Obeying the Bible is "Preferrable, but not essential"??? Yikes!

Eric

Joshua and all,

Allow me to introduce Barry and Helen Setterfield to you. We waited. We weren't together often before our marriage, but, being fully mature adults, we had all the time to ourselves we desired.

We waited.

And it was very, VERY hard!

And I will never ever regret that we obeyed God. I never had any idea of the blessings He would give us for that obedience.

You see, God seems to be the one most "obsessed with virginity."

Perhaps, Joshua, because you are a liberal of liberals, you simply are not someone the Bible-obeying conservatives want to marry them. I know we chose a friend who believes what we believe. I also know this friend, Pastor Dean Roper of Adelaide, refused to marry another couple later who was living together. So they had to go to a much more liberal minister.

John, God bless you and your family in your determined desire to obey God. This is the kind of witness the world needs to see that God Himself is real and that He Himself empowers us to trust and obey Him. Sex is a holy thing the way God has given it to humans. It is for ever so much more than procreating. It is also a picture of the relationship a believer has with Christ Himself -- Christ is invited in and a new life is born which is then shepherded by Christ through the Holy Spirit to maturity.

No wonder Satan has done everything possible to destroy this picture by promoting "free love."

Except that the only time it is really free is within the bounds of marriage. The price paid for it every other time is horrendous.

[ October 18, 2002, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

Yikes is right!
I have known many couples who have not had sex before they were married, whether with one another or with any one else. To me this is so precious. I really do think God's Law is crystal clear about sex before marriage. NO! NO MEANS NO!
I first had sex when I was 16, though it be with the man I was going to marry and eventually divorce it was wrong. Through the years before I met the most wonderful man God could have ever blessed me with I did not obey God's Law. I even felt the horrible conviction but yet ignored Him.
When I walked down the aisle to marry my Husband I knew I had stollen a blessing from him. That was such a painful and sad feeling. It was a gift from God meant only for him and I threw it away, NEVER to be able to get it back.
He too had premarital sex and we knew that going into the marriage. God bless him, he has always told me it did not matter what I did in my past it was me today that he loved. I know that to be so true. But there have been times I have wondered if he ever thinks about those women, that will always be there. Not only that but the guilt of what I took from him because I did not obey.
Oh yes I know Jesus died for that and many other of my sins and God has forgiven me but that does not mean we will not suffer reprocusions from our actions.
I have a friend who is 34 and is still a virgin, and will remain so until if/when she marries. I respect her so much for that and at times have even been jealous. We talk about it and she always reminds me that I have been forgiven and there are sins she has commited that I have not and that everyone is a sinful as the next.
Please, if there is anyone who reads this thread that is still a virgin, stay that way and be a blessing to your future spouse. You can NEVER get it back so don't throw it away in the first place. God created this union for our pleasure and to share all with only our spouse.
Love in Christ Angiinstlouie

P.S. I really think the only thing about staying a virgin that becomes unhealthy is when they are scheming to do it anyway.
Love in Christ Angie

Amen, Angie. Good post. God bless you and your husband with the joy and peace He has promised those who are His. I'm sure you have a wonderful and maturing marriage.

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua:
I'm still waiting to meet a couple who waited.

Joshua

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Joshua....but you already have.....Bro. Adam and Baptistforever.....Let me even say that we haven't even kissed on the lips....We both know how important sexual purity is to God, and we also know that it should be just as important to us, so it is....and we're waiting....Granted, we still have a little under 20 months to go, but we both are 100% virgins....So, my friend, your wait is over, and Adam and I couldn't be happier....Now, let me explain what physical contact we have....

We hold hands, cuddle and occassionally have a kiss on the cheek and hand, but that's it! We have taken precautions to ensure our virginity...We are both 20, never been married and never have had sex....What more of a virigin do you want....Sorry to say, but not everyone fornicates and although at times it may be hard, we both know that we are doing the right thing!

~Teresa~

Rev. Joshua ,

Let me introduce you to a couple more.

Pete and Jackie Richert (that's me
Eric and Kim Francis (best friends)
Matt and Megan Scully (roommate, actually getting married in December)
Ben and Jill Richert (older brother)
Jonathin and Laurie Howard (two more friends)

Hey, I'm 24, and so are all of the above (except my brother). You don't have to have lived in some other time to obey the Bible.

I think you and made had an extended conversation a little more then a year ago so I won't start again.

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
I think you would agree with me that sexual expression is a very powerful thing and should not be treated carelessly or lightly. Right?

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Certainly. I do, however, think the obsession some people have with virginity is probably a bit unhealthy.</font>[/QUOTE]If it's an obsession, yes it's unhealthy. I've known of some who get very self-righteous about being virgins (or "technical virgins") and use it as a judge of spirituality. But there are many, many people who don't obsess about virginity but instead consciously choose to abstain because of biblical instruction and common sense.

As for the weddings I have done, I've never done one for a church member.

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That sounds strange for a pastor... Is there another on the pastoral staff who usually handles weddings?

I do about six weddings a year, and they have been for people I knew in college, friends, referrals from friends, attendees at past weddings I have done, or people I have met through doing chaplaincy. As a result, the coulple whom I have married encompass a fairly diverse group ranging from fundamentalists to liberals. This is also true for the many dozens of couples whom I have counselled as a chaplain and a pastoral counselor.

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The people you encounter may not be the best representatives of the norm... Now I'm not saying that most people abstain, but I think there are more than you realize. For what it's worth, I don't talk about how I abstained unless someone cares to ask -- it's not that big a deal, more of a side-effect of my faith. But I do know that quite a few people have assumed that I did not wait because I dated one girl for so long without getting married. They assumed I was "getting the milk without buying the cow" since (1) we weren't rushing into marriage, (2) my love is very beautiful, and (3) she is a professional musician. If they voice false assumptions in my presence, I correct them nicely.

I'm still waiting to meet a couple who waited.

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By the response you've received, you've met quite a few online...

Perhaps you've made assumptions about some people you know in the real world?

[ October 18, 2002, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

There is no doubt that “abstinence” before marriage is a wonderful thing and the goodly way to go. However, Joshua makes some good points. It is imprudent to be heavily focused on sexuality.

It is a wonderful gift for those who have been blessed by GOD to stay “virgin” until married. Sexuality outside of marriage brings sorrow in almost every instance. Rarely are the unmarried sexually active spared the pain and misery that such conduct often yields (whether physically or emotionally).

However, it is wrong for any Christian to wear the “chastity” gift as a “badge” of Christian honor. Jesus certainly did not (John 8: 3-11). To boast about being a virgin until marriage is hardly a Christian virtue. It is better to just do it and DON’T talk about in the “self” mode (the LORD’s example is best). Rather, talk about it in the “general” Biblical sense – or - when witnessing to a brother (for the men) or sister (for the woman) when outreaching to them.

Furthermore, a woman should refrain from discussing such things with a man and a man should refrain from discussing such things with a woman (unless in the most general of Biblical terms). Isn’t it better to leave specific personal details un-said?

The marriage bed is where GOD works out his blessings for the husband and wife. The marriage bed alone is UNDEFILED in matters of sexuality (Hebrews 13: 4). Through this undefiled union comes many fantastic blessings (Psalm 127: 3-5).

latterrain77

[ October 18, 2002, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Perhaps you've made assumptions about some people you know in the real world?

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Clearly there are a few here, but I would still contend that they are the tiny, tiny minority - even among evangelicals.

As for "assumptions" - this is always something I discuss with couples in their pre-marital counselling sessions; so no assumptions there. It's also something that comes up in one context or another during pastoral counselling.

I stand by my contention that, in my experience (of people whom I know personally and not electronically) it is exceptionally rare - even among conservatives - for couple's to remain chaste until marriage.

Joshua

P.S. We don't have many singles in our current congregation or the last one where I was a pastor.

Originally posted by latterrain77:
Furthermore, a woman should refrain from discussing such things with a man and a man should refrain from discussing such things with a woman (unless in the most general of Biblical terms). Isn’t it better to leave specific personal details un-said?

latterrain77

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Are you saying that a woman should not tell a man, who is to be her husband, if she has fornicated and lost her virginity? If so, I must disagree..... When you have pre-marital sex, with someone who you don't eventually marry, then you should tell your to-be husband that you did not remain pure... You sinned against him, so you need to seek God's forgiveness and your partners forgiveness... To say that you shouldn't talk about it is saying that you shouldn't tell your partner that you couldn't keep yourself pure, and that right there is a lie, by not telling them, you are misleading them... It's not fair to them, at all!

~Teresa~

When People indulge in pre marital sex maybe God considers that they are in fact "married". It isnt clear to me in the bible where the new testament church conducted marriage for the bretheren. It seems that a marriage ceremony is more of a cultural thing.

I uphold the idea of marriage. It is Gods way. but the way we go about it is up for discussion. In India many Christians have their wives chosen in arranged marriages by their parents. This does not in my opinion contradict any scripture.

Without trying to be rude it seems to me that when people in the bible became man and wife they simply just got together. I dont see this as the same as the modern defacto relationship of today though because it was based on a formal commitment.

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Perhaps you've made assumptions about some people you know in the real world?

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Clearly there are a few here, but I would still contend that they are the tiny, tiny minority - even among evangelicals.</font>[/QUOTE]I would certainly agree that those who abstain from premarital sex are in the minority, but I don't think it is as small a number as you think. I believe we are both working from personal experience here and my Christian friends and associates often do remain virgins until marriage. Then there are those who've messed up a time or two or were sexually active before conversion. And there are also those I know who are committed believers who have a weakness in areas of sexuality for various reasons and they have given in to their passions on a number of occasions.

I had lunch with my pastor today and discussed our conversation. I asked him general information about the congregation (absolutely no names or situations, just the big picture) and he said that our congregation has its share of those who have had sexual encounters outside the bonds of marriage, but he thinks that at least half of the under 40 single folks at our church are not sexually active.

As for "assumptions" - this is always something I discuss with couples in their pre-marital counselling sessions; so no assumptions there. It's also something that comes up in one context or another during pastoral counselling.

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That's good. I was hoping you weren't just firing that off after the handshakes. Less sex *after* marriage would be hard to imagine!

I stand by my contention that, in my experience (of people whom I know personally and not electronically) it is exceptionally rare - even among conservatives - for couple's to remain chaste until marriage.

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I believe that is your experience. I just know that it is not everyone's experience.

By the way, you didn't answer my questions from my earlier post. I don't know if that was intentional or if you missed them. If you don't want to respond publicly, I'd still like to get a PM from you.

Here they are:

1.) What do you teach about sexual activity before marriage?
2.) What does your church consider sinful sexual expression outside the bounds of marriage?