Sexual Abstinence

[Christian41974]

Baptist Believer with all due respect, what? You believe that? We have just seen what the word feet in the Bible means ,and how it is translated "feet" every time in the Bible ,and you are still saying the same absurd thing. To tell you the truth I just believe what the English says in the Bible. God knew how to word the Bible.But if you wanted to go to the original language it is still the same. You ought to let God be true and every man a liar ,and go with the Bible (and commen sense) not foolishness. Thank you and have a nice day.
To the main question, upon the authority of Scripture we ought to flee fornication(1Corinthians 6:18).And the Bible even says it is good for a man not to touch a woman(1Corinthians 7:1) and in the context it is talking about the unmarried.And James 4:17 says "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good ,and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

 

[Abiyah]

Jim --

Is it possible that they walked out because they
did not believe in chastity?

Baptist Believer --

I do not say this to chide or shame anyone,
and I say it with the same trepidation you must
have felt to write what you did, but sometimes,
people are just not ready to hear/read this. I
have a hard time when people speak/write the
truth and are charged negatively for it, but you
probably knew it would happen.

I think there is a possibility that some may not
feel so negatively about what you said, if you
can put some big names behind what you say.
I know what you said to be true because I get
my training from those who know the language
idioms, and history well.

I think that some Baptists feel pretty good
about Clarkes. Do you know if he broached
this? I know that he often out-right avoided
some of these topics.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by CDGriffin:
Baptist Believer with all due respect, what? You believe that? We have just seen what the word feet in the Bible means ,and how it is translated "feet" every time in the Bible ,and you are still saying the same absurd thing. To tell you the truth I just believe what the English says in the Bible. God knew how to word the Bible. But if you wanted to go to the original language it is still the same.

The meaning of the Hebrew has never been the issue. The Hebrew says “feet”, the English translations usually say “feet”. That has not been in dispute. You misunderstand what I have written if you believe that.

What I am saying (for the third time) is that the expression “feet” is a euphemism (that is, “the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression that may offend or suggest something unpleasant; also: the expression so utilized) for the male sexual organ in this passage.

I did a quick internet source and found some additional information on the subject. (NOTE: I do not necessarily endorse anything on these websites. I have not had time to investigate them myself.) Here’s are two places you can see idioms of the Old Testament:

http://www.geocities.com/bible_translation/otidioms.htm - general idioms
http://www.new-life.net/marrag01.htm - idioms from the Song of Solomon

I first learned about Hebrew idioms in Dr. David Garland’s Hebrew class at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in 1990-1991. We would translate passages together in class to get a “living language” approach to understanding the text. It was an amazingly rich time of Bible study and understanding of the rich Hebrew culture and ancient Hebrew thought.

If you notice, Abiyah, a person of Jewish heritage, has affirmed what I have said about this subject.

You ought to let God be true and every man a liar

I’ve never ever suggested anything about God not being true. Using this statement in this context is just an attempt to be a spiritual bully. (I checked your profile and noticed that you aren’t even 18 yet, so I don’t take it personally at all. You’ve probably heard it from your pastor so many times you’ve just picked up the habit… But it’s a bad habit.)

and go with the Bible (and commen sense) not foolishness.

That’s what I’m doing. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. Go your way in peace.

Thank you and have a nice day.

And to you a very nice day.

To the main question, upon the authority of Scripture we ought to flee fornication(1Corinthians 6:18). And the Bible even says it is good for a man not to touch a woman(1Corinthians 7:1) and in the context it is talking about the unmarried.

Actually, I believe the context is that it is good for people to be single and not pursue marriage. (It is not a command to stay single, but advice to those who are wondering if they want to marry.)

And James 4:17 says "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good ,and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

That is true.

For the record, you should note that throughout this thread I have been a strong advocate of sexual abstainence.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
I do not say this to chide or shame anyone,
and I say it with the same trepidation you must
have felt to write what you did, but sometimes,
people are just not ready to hear/read this. I
have a hard time when people speak/write the
truth and are charged negatively for it, but you
probably knew it would happen.

Oh yeah, I knew some folks would be upset. I struggled with it because I was afraid people might try to twist it to use as justification for sexual activity before marriage. But in the end I decided that it is more important to help people get a better understanding of the scriptures.

Thanks for your support. It is appreciated!

I think there is a possibility that some may not
feel so negatively about what you said, if you
can put some big names behind what you say.
I know what you said to be true because I get
my training from those who know the language
idioms, and history well.

I have had some good training as well, but unfortunately I don’t have much of a theological library left to look up references. I had to sell most of it (including almost all of the commentaries) earlier this year when I was unemployed. I became unemployed the week of September 11th and was not able to get a job for over six months. Unfortunately the bills kept rolling in and I have a nasty habit of eating once or twice a day, so I had to start selling things when I tapped out my other financial resources. I was a month away from having to make some *very serious* decisions when I got a call for an interview which led to my current job. It was the only interview I was able to get during the entire period of my unemployment.

I think that some Baptists feel pretty good
about Clarkes. Do you know if he broached
this? I know that he often out-right avoided
some of these topics.

I don’t know. Maybe someone else here can check it out.

 

[Abiyah]

I went to my husband's library to check, and
Clarke basically avoids this.

This is a tough issue. I believe that in the
modern believers' society, we have become
verbally prudish in order to cover up the truth of
our own infidelities. This cover has done our
young people an extreme disservice, because
we have not been matter-of-fact about sexuality,
so they have gotten their information from the
world.

Our sexuality is a gift given us by our God for
the perpetuation and preservation of humanity
and to encourage a close bond between a mar-
ried couple. Society, through sin, has turned it
into something dirty. And this is not the only
invention of our God and gift to humanity that
has been treated thus.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
I went to my husband's library to check, and
Clarke basically avoids this.

This is a tough issue. I believe that in the
modern believers' society, we have become
verbally prudish in order to cover up the truth of
our own infidelities. This cover has done our
young people an extreme disservice, because
we have not been matter-of-fact about sexuality,
so they have gotten their information from the
world.

Our sexuality is a gift given us by our God for
the perpetuation and preservation of humanity
and to encourage a close bond between a mar-
ried couple. Society, through sin, has turned it
into something dirty. And this is not the only
invention of our God and gift to humanity that
has been treated thus.

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!

We have let the world set the sexual agenda by avoiding it so many years.

Thanks for the good words!

 

[Jim1999]

Abiyah,

Jim --

Is it possible that they walked out because they
did not believe in chastity?

I only got to talk with two of the people. One was living in an unmarried state. The other thought it was too personal a subject for the pulpit.

None were members of the church, but familiar with me from the university, and they were just visting. At least they didn't stomp their feet on the way out.

I hope they didn't think I was pointing a finger at them, because that is not my style. It was more than ten years ago now, but the fact they left a service stuck like a fish's hook in my mind.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[latterrain77]

Hi Baptist Believer. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this subject. I have not previously thought about your observation concerning “Ruth & Boaz.” I appreciate your idea. However, I must humbly admit that my read of the Biblical language does not immediately bring me to the same conclusion that you have reached (at least not initially). Still, I would not dismiss anything without first studying it closer and in detail. Hopefully I will be able to do this soon.

We do agree that what takes place between a husband and wife is undefiled (Heb. 13: 4). Every part of a husband and wife’s entire body belongs to each other (1 Cor. 7: 4, Eph. 5: 28). Marriage creates a holy union. Whatever takes place between husband and wife in marital relations is undefiled (Heb. 13: 4). Thank you again Baptist Believer. I appreciate your comments and follow up.

latterrain77

[ October 25, 2002, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
...see how the terms "feet", "hand" and "thigh" are often used in place of sexual organs.

Can you give us some examples?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Pastor Bob 63:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
...see how the terms "feet", "hand" and "thigh" are often used in place of sexual organs.

Can you give us some examples?</font>[/QUOTE]I'm guessing you missed these links. Here they are again:

http://www.geocities.com/bible_translation/otidioms.htm - general idioms
http://www.new-life.net/marrag01.htm - idioms from the Song of Solomon

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Hmmm...lost site of this thread. Sorry BB that I missed your questions.

Here are your answers:

1.) What do you teach about sexual activity before marriage?

That it is preferrable to reserve a level of sexual intimacy for one's spouse, but that it is not an event of cosmic significance if one has intercourse before marriage. I also believe that any activity that could lead to the production of children shouldn't occur outside of a context where the parents would provide a healthy environment for the raising of that child.

2.) What does your church consider sinful sexual expression outside the bounds of marriage?

That's never come up in a staff meeting, so I can't speak for an official church position here. I don't think anyone on the staff would be particularly opposed to my position.

As for your exegesis of Ruth, it's consistent with what I've read on the passage. It's not convenient for a contemporary, conservative sexual ethic - but much of the Hebrew Bible isn't.

Joshua

 

[TaterTot]

Joshua, sometimes, I dont "get" you. I cant think if any scripture that would back your claims about premarital sexuality. I am usually open to study other interpretations, but this one baffles me.