The Rapture....

I'm definitely post-trib. I could go on for pages why, but I'll spare you for now. I am currently on the fence between premill and amill/partial-preterist thinking, leaning quite heavily to the latter.

BTW, one of the best "rapture" sites (although I don't agree with everything he says) is run by a Baptist at http://www.lasttrumpet.com . He has several excellent articles answering the common (and uncommon) pretrib arguments, including the ones presented in this thread (eg. see his awesome article on the Jewish wedding idea).

 

Some arguments from Revelation page (On the "Pre Wrath" thread I started by arguing that the rapture is actually MID-wrath, by its placement in Rev. 14, after the seals and 6 trumpets, but before the 7th ("last")trumpet and bowl judgements. This seems to be the most clear timing of the rapture.)

The popular pre-tribulational theory...betrays a purely Americanized church that in their own words don't believe that God would ever do such a thing to us (leaving us on the earth during the reign of Antichrist). Christ had told us to watch and pray that we be counted worthy to escape all these things. (Luke 21:36) He didn't say that if we were saved, we would all automatically be taken away from it all. (The fact that the Philadelphia church is specifically promised to be "kept from the hour of testing" seems to point to special protection of some, rather than the immediate rapture of the whole church before any of the seals or trumpets).

People quote 1 Thess.5:9-- "We are not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation from our Lord Jesus Christ". But this scripture is obviously talking about salvation. The so-called "tribulation saints" who get saved after the pre-trib rapture won't be appointed to [God's eternal] "wrath" [in Hell] either, but they will still suffer the human portion of the "wrath". And besides, they will be spared from the final divine wrath of the bowl judgments, anyway.

People suggest Paul's "last" trump is not the same as John's 7th trump because Paul wrote before John and didn't know about the seven. But it was the same God who inspired both, and he revealed a "last" trump to Paul (suggesting it was the end of a series), and further revealed all seven to John, in his more prophetically detailed "Revelation". The point is, could any trumpet before the 7th Trumpet truly be considered the last trump? And if anyone suggests that this harvest is just a special second rapture for the "tribulation saints" who had been "left behind", from an earlier rapture, no two raptures are ever mentioned.

There is absolutely no proof that the Holy Spirit is "he who now restrains...until he be taken away"(2 Thess.2:7-10), implying that the Church goes with Him, before the Antichrist arises. That is just an interpretation that was just arbitrarily plugged in there. For all we know it could be Satan. He keeps his plans hidden (to prolong his time on earth) until Christ forces him to come out with his plot so that all may be fulfilled. It has also been suggested that it could be an angel. Even if it was the Spirit, where do we get this idea that the Spirit is only where the church of this age is? The left behind "tribulation saints" will have the Spirit, won't they?

That the Church is not directly mentioned in a the bulk of Revelation (another "proof" that we won't be here)is because this prophecy is primarily about the world scene. There are many references to "the faithful", but of course, these are said to refer to the "tribulation saints".

The best argument would seem to be Christ's warning about his coming as "a thief in the night"; "at an hour when you think not" (Rev. 3:3, Matt. 24:36-51). This is called "immanence". But the whole context is watchfulness. The reason people are caught off guard in the first place, is not just because they are doing wrong, but also because they are not WATCHing. And this suggests that there were signs that one could observe to know that the end was near. (Matt. 24:32, 33, 16:2,3, 2 Peter 3:10) And then Christ goes on to tell us to watch and pray. Our escaping is based upon our WORKS, while the rapture is attached to our salvation, which is based on FAITH. Meanwhile, it's the pre-trib theory that may actually fulfill it's own proof-text. People will go through all of the seals and trumpets (rigorously engaged in the politics of the 2-horned system all the way), and say "these can't be the fulfillments of the end times prophecies-- We're still here!". And thus Christ's coming truly will be in an hour they know not!

I've even heard that if the rapture wasn't pre-tribulational, we would not be able to "comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4:18) But we forget that the 1st century Christians Paul wrote to were already in tribulation-like circumstances. The beginning of the seals and trumpets would simply mean to them that this world was almost over, and that they only had a short wait, (ch. 6:11) and this would be a comfort to them. But not to us. We today are so cozy in this country, and so enmeshed in the monetary system (people who believe mark of beast will be some sort of electronic card now use them themselves, etc.) But God never promised us it would always be like this.
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Which Dispensation is "parenthetical"?

Pre-tribulationism is driven by Dispensationalism, which divides history into the age of "Law", and the age of "grace", or the Church age. A problem is, that people describe the church age as some sort of parenthetical period, like an afterthought, that God stuck in the middle of his true scheme, the age of Law. Then, the Church is raptured, returning the world to the age of Law (Salvation is no longer by faith in Christ, but by keeping the Law, including avoiding the mark of the Beast; seems to explain certain OT passages where God says He will punish people in the last days for breaking the Sabbath and other ceremonial laws). So this theory is used to undergird pre-tribulationism. But actually, just the opposite is true: God's true plan is grace. It was the period of Law that was the parenthetical age begun a few thousands of years after man's creation, to show man that He was fallen (Gal. 3:19, 24, Rom. 3:20) and therefore in need of more than just a system of law, or God's direct presence in the Temple. And keep in mind, the OT scriptures were aimed at Israel, before it was fully revealed that God would bring in a new dispensation. This would explain the references to OT commandments in last-days prophecies.
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The reason why the rapture is now and not later, is because the tribulation and trumpets were humanly (and perhaps somewhat naturally) carried out afflictions that partly fulfil the wrath of God. God allows His people to be on earth, not comfortable (remember, He never promised that), but still protected. But now, we are getting ready to see the last 7 plagues, or "bowl judgments" (KJV: "vials"), which are divinely carried out, and from which no protection will be possible. So for this God will completely remove all His people from the earth, and they will now be with Him. From now on, no more groups of faithful are seen on the earth, and no more repentance is witnessed. All who will ever be redeemed in this dispensation are now redeemed. (Jer. 8:20)

PS. I notice that the UBB codes are added at where the cursor is now instead of at the bottom. This is a great help!

 

The Last Day is not the last day of all human history; it is the Last Day for the church who will be raptured/taken into Heaven at His coming. [I Thess. 4:17 & I Cor. 15:51-] If the wicked and the saved are going to be raised at the same time, it was superflous for the Apostle Paul to say, that only ' . . . the dead in Christ shall rise first' and then the living saints will rise to be with Him [I Thess. 4:16d]. There is no mention of the wicked dead during this monumental event, perhaps soon to take place. The wicked dead are said to rise after the 1,000 year Messianic reign of Christ in Israel. [Rev. 20:5].

Dr. Berrian

 

If pretrib is true, when are trib saints (who are killed) resurrected? How many resurrections does pretrib require? And what happens to trib saints that survive the tribulation?

 

BrianT,

***** ‘When will PreTrib. who are killed--be resurrected?'

Perhaps others like Pastor Larry might have seen something in the Word which will answer your questions, or others may have read some-- thoroughly ‘dispensational books' that will explain this.

I think the main concern for Christians is to see that a vast multitude of people will enter Heaven from all nations, through death, having received everlasting life [Rev. 7:9 & 13-17]. Vs. 14 speaks of a time slot in human history called the Great Tribulation and not a mere ‘tribulation' experienced by the early church as delineated in other passages in the Bible.

***** ‘How many resurrections are required?' Again I have not studied for the answer to this question by way of reading dispensational books as to your question. I am, however, reading one now called, "Dispensationalism" by Dr. Charles C. Ryrie, Th.D. from Dallas Seminary & Ph.D. from the University of Edinburgh. If I find these answers I will introduce these answers to the board.

We do know that the ‘two witness' who will be slain in the streets of Jerusalem [Rev. 11:8-12] will rise from the dead on the third day after their demise and these two prophets will ‘ . . . . ASCEND into Heaven in the clouds and their enemies {will view the scene.}

***** ‘What happens to Great Tribulation saints who survive the ordeal?' They will step into the Kingdom Age of 1,000 years and will live out their lives until their deaths. These will receive a glorified body then like unto our Lord's spiritual body and will continue until the 1,000 years has ended and will move from there and will be able to enjoy the ‘new Heaven and the new earth.' These people will be those who will have trusted in Jesus for their hope of everlasting life during the era called the ‘Great Tribulation.'

The martyred, saints of the Great Tribulation will obviously be awarded a spiritual body like Jesus' body, otherwise, they will not be able to live for that thousand years, plus their movement into eternity. The new Heaven and the new Earth will be part of the enjoyment of eternity.

Someone asked how will the martyred, saints who live in spiritual bodies be able to mix or interact with those who enter the Kingdom Age in physical bodies? The answer is found in Luke 24:36-43. On the evening of the resurrection of Christ He appeared among the brethren in His spiritual, eternal body. He even ate ' . . . broiled fish and honeycomb.'

Rev. 13:15 indicates that the martyrs will ‘ . . . be killed,' and in Rev. 20:4 defines how they will lost their lives because of the power of the antichrist during this unprecedented time. [Daniel 12:1] The antichrist's execution of choice will be to ‘ . . . be beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God.'

The Prophet Daniel in his last chapter in verse one indicates that the archangel Michael will protect Israel from complete extinction, although countless hundreds of thousands will be martyred in Jerusalem, plus millions from around the world [Rev. 7:9]. This archangel's main responsibility will be to preserve national Israel by way of people and also the land because in Rev. 19:11 Christ will destroy His enemies and will take His throne in Jerusalem just after this victory. [Zechariah 14:17 & Micah 5:2] Jesus will become ‘ . . . . the Ruler in Israel . . . ' Daniel describes this event of seven years, especially the last 3 l/2 years as ‘ . . . a time of trouble, such as NEVER was since there was a nation . . . '

I do know that Dr. Walvoord, second President of Dallas Seminary, has more information to offer as to your concerns and questions.

Respectfully,

Dr. Berrian

 

The Premillennial view is just a pile of Scripture thrown together. It is nonsense! There is nothing in the Bible ANYWHERE that discusses Millennial-Age saints dying and instantaneously receiving a glorified body in order to continue reigning the rest of the 1,000 years. Premillennialism has its place in fairy tales, not the Bible. Revelation 20 does not even make reference to the throne of David, Jerusalem, or any of that stuff. It looks to me if John was seeing a vision he would have seen this stuff.

By His grace, Christopher †

 

Other prophets have seen 'this stuff.' Did you want John to repeat it for you?

Dr. Berrian

 

Here I go again. I'm gonna say it again for the millionth time:

1. The doctrine of pretrib rapture had its roots in 1830 and was popularized by Darby.
2. Darby also plagiarized the writings of Lacunza and others.
3. The primary source of this pretrib rapture nonsense is one Margaret MacDonald who uttered this pretrib nonsense while in a state of demonic possession.
4. This teaching is clearly occultic in origins.
5. This teaching was virtually nonexistent during the first 1,800 years of the church.
6. Pretribbers believe so because their pastors told them so, their seminary teachers told them so, and others told them so....

Now, if only pretribbers would read this article with an open mind, discarding whatever false mental baggage they have been fed with in the very beginning....

http://members.tripod.com/Fam_Bible_Assoc/Rapture-2.html

 

There is clearly a lot of vitriole combined with very little exegesis or understanding. Christopher, you need to sit back and relax. You might disagree with premillennialism for now but to say that it is nonsense and that it has no scriptural basis is simply wrong. Premillennialism is the view of the early church and that has been documented beyond doubt.

Robert, you as well need to do some study. I am a pretrib, not because of Darby or anyone else. I am a pretrib because when I study Scripture, I see it to be the view that makes the most sense of all the data. The view you espouse requires you to dismiss certain exegetical points as well as theological points. You might say it for the millionth time but it is just as shaky theologically and exegetically as it was the first time. No matter how many times you say it, bad facts lead to bad conclusions. If you study this issue, putting your mental baggage aside (as you say), you will see how unfounded and outrageous your comments are. As I told Christopher, you might disagree but you certainly cannot make the claims you do and have them withstand the test of exegesis and theology.

 

And I am going to tell you for the millionth time you are not telling the truth. A book written in 1677 outlines the pre trib position exactly as it is taught by most dispensationalists today. Quotes from the patristics support a pre trib rapture as early as the late 3rd century.

If it had its roots in Darby, how could he have plagerized an early writer?

More nonsense! Now you have Margaret being the "primary source" rather than Darby being the "root" when he really wasn't, also according to you, but "Lacunza and others" were! Make up your mind!

Ad hominem garbage!

Your knowledge of ecclesiastical history is sadly lacking.

More ad hominem garbage.

 

A good article on the history of pretrib development is at:

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/timeline/index.html

Thomas, you said "A book written in 1677 outlines the pre trib position exactly as it is taught by most dispensationalists today. Quotes from the patristics support a pre trib rapture as early as the late 3rd century."

Please provide more information about this 1677 book and the 3rd century quotes. I would like to see if they stand up to scrutiny.

Brian

 

Post was deleted because the web site in reference to no longer existed!... Brother Glen

[ March 23, 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

After considering all points I've come up with a new one I'm an Ah/Panmillennialist... And that's my final answer... Brother Glen

[ March 23, 2002, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

Robert,

Most of Biblical theology has been under the dark cloud of Roman Catholic teaching for centuries. The rapture view was believed by the Apostle Paul and has been rediscovered by students of the Word since the Augustinian/Calvinistic/Reformation fathers missed this vital eschatological truth.

Dr. Berrian

 

Did you actually talk to Paul in person about this, or are you just doing your best to interpret his epistles like the rest of us?

 

Just as their was some truth in John Calvin, or some Christians would not believe in his view of Scripture. There is truth also in J.N. Darby with the exception of his Calvinistic view of Scripture.

Dr. Berrian

 

Dear Brethren

We know that there are Old Testament examples which are types and shadows of the new. What does this have to do with the rapture?

In Genesis 5 we read about Enoch who walked with God. In V. 24 " And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. In Hebrews 11:5 we read "by faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found because God had translated him"

Enoch is an Old Testament example of a person translated or changed and did not go through physical death because God took him.

Enoch was taken not long before God Judged the world in the days of Noah. Noach is a picture of those perserved during the Great Tribulation.

The teaching of the Lord's coming for his saints by Paul as found in 1Thess. 4:14-18 was a word of comfort to Christians who were worried about those who had died in Christ. We find that "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with archangel's voice, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord"

In 1 Cor. 15:51 Paul writes "Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed (translated).."

Like Enoch of old the Lord will one day snatch away those who have trusted him and they will be with him forever.

Robert

 

Robert Nicholson,

Agreed.

Dr. Berrian

 

Although I agree that there are "types" in the OT, the danger lies in finding them on your own. When the NT exposes and explains a "type", that is wonderful. But finding them when no other scripture exposes it, is too open to speculation and bias.

For example, I could just as easily find a "type" in the fact that the Israelites did not leave Egypt until *after* the nastiness. Or in Jacob not getting Rachel until *after* the 7 years.

Enoch was taken out several generations before Noah. How does this apply to pretrib? Also, many other prettribbers say that *Noah* is a "type" of pretrib rapture, because he went into the ark 7 days before the rains came.

You see, unless the NT explains a type, we should not rely on finding types ourselves. They are not explained in scripture, they are speculative and biased, and they are purely allegorical (something pretribbers fault others for, btw )

Brian

 

Amen. "Rapture" is from the Latin "rapiemur," which is how the old Latin translation of the Bible translated "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. But many Christians believe they will be "caught up" all the way into heaven at Christ's coming, and that this will be before the great tribulation, when the Bible doesn't teach either of these things. It says that Christians will be caught up into the clouds to meet Christ as he descends at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and that this will happen "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31).

Some say the church must be raptured before the tribulation just like Enoch was translated before the flood. But the Bible doesn't tie Enoch's translation with the flood in any way. He was translated almost 700 years before the flood. Nor does the Bible say we're to look to the translation of Enoch as a type for us, but instead says we're to look to the patient suffering of Job (James 5:10-11).

It doesn't say Enoch was translated to escape suffering, and all the great Old Testament saints and martyrs of Hebrews 11:32-38 weren't translated, and the church has never been translated from persecution, war, famine, plague, or natural disaster during the past 2000 years.

The Bible says Noah's deliverance was a type of our deliverance through baptism (1 Peter 3:20-21), not rapture, and the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrha was a type of the eternal judgment of hellfire (Jude 7), not a type of the tribulation.

http://www.geocities.com/postrib