The Rapture....

[livin'intheword]

Chris, you said
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>quote:
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Originally posted by Houstonian:
Amillennialist here (no rapture).
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AMEN!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No rapture means just that, no rapture. I haven't been reading into anything. And you have yet to prove the Pri-trib Rapture wrong.

Paula

 

[Phillip]

I am Pre-Trib or at least rapture before the REAL WRATH (3 1/2 yrs.), but I will tell one of the arguments of the others. It is Mathew 24.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world.

World can and is printed as "age" in certain manuscripts. My problem is says "thy coming".

Another argument is the fact that it says one man will be left while another taken, one woman left while another taken, etc. This entire chapter is meant by non rapturers to mean (and it could and I will explain how) that 1/2 of the people of Israel were killed in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. If you read the chapter closely with the thought of the destruction of 1/2 of the total Jewish population (less than in the holocost, but 1/2 of the population was a MUCH greater percentage and would touch every family extra hard so the tribulation talked about could be related to that destruction and the one man taken the other left could refer to the number killed or taken into slave labor.

Their key phrase to use is:

"16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

The last sentence referring to the great tribulation to occur to the Jews which also meant the FINAL destruction of the country of Israel, until its rebuilding later.

Then their key phrase is verse 34:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

As I said many thinks he is referring to the 70 year AD destruction of Jerusalem which would essentially be the end of the world as the Jews know it. They also say that 70 AD was approximately 40 years from when he made this speech which is typically one generation for the Jews (see Exodus and 40 year delay before entering the Holy land to let generation die off.)

HOWEVER: There seems to be too much mention of the Lord's return and like some who say it is symbolism like in Revelation then to me it sure seems like the REAL tribulation.

BUT, let me make one more remark that is interesting. My pastor feels that almost every scripture in the Bible has something to tell EVERY age. AND because of this he might have been referring to both in a round about way. I know this sounds like a stretch, but it is not as much if you think about it with an open mind. Either way, it still appears to refer to a rapture followed by the great wrath (which may be the LAST 3 1/2 years, but still could be the entire trib).

Just some thoughts from different scholars with different points of views. Like all others I'm sure everybody will have their specific interpretation for exactly what this means.

 

[John Wells]

Chris Temple: None of those passages - nada - mention a pretrib rapture.

Just like the Bible doesn’t mention the trinity. They do build enough of a case for it that many sound, reasoning, soul-searching miners of God’s Word make a case for the rapture (and the trinity, and yes the case here is rock solid), as evidenced by all those responding favorably in this thread.

Pre-trib, Post-trib, Mil, Amil views are not cut-and-dry proven or disproven beliefs by scripture. Far too many good theologians line up on all sides of the fence. There are a lot of opinions and not enough facts to be conclusive. An approach that acknowledges that is a good posture!

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Th 4:16-17 NIV) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> After the dead come forth, their spirits, already with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23), now being joined to resurrected new bodies (1 Cor. 15:35-50), the living Christians will be raptured, lit. snatched away (cf. John 10:28; Acts 8:39). This passage, along with John 14:1-3 and 1 Cor. 15:51,52, form the biblical basis for "the Rapture" of the church. The time of the Rapture cannot be conclusively determined from this passage alone. However, when other texts such as Rev. 3:10 and John 14:3 are consulted and compared to the texts about Christ's coming in judgment (Matt. 13:34-50; 24:29-44; Rev. 19:11-21) at the end of a 7 year tribulation, it has to be noted that there is a clear difference between the character of the "Rapture" in that there is no mention of any judgment, while the other texts feature judgment. So then, it is best to understand that the Rapture occurs at a time different from the coming of Christ in judgment. Thus, the Rapture has been described as pretribulational (before the wrath of God unfolded in the judgments of Rev. 6-19). This event includes complete transformation (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51,52; Phil 3:20,21) and union with the Lord Jesus Christ that never ends. -- John F. MacArthur, Jr., The MacArthur Study Bible, (Dallas: Word Publishing) 1997.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

[ddavis]

Just waiting on the upper taker, Pre-Trib.
HEHE

 

[livin'intheword]

ddavis said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just waiting on the upper taker, Pre-Trib.
HEHE <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LoL..the upper taker!! Too cute!

Paula

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Upper taker, mansion maker, sin breaker,....

Just can't wait.....is that selfish of me ?

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by livin'intheword:
Hebrews 9:28
" So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time, without sin untio salvation."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So where does the third time , i.e., the invisible rapture, fit in??

John 6:39-40 (ESV)
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.[40] or this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:44 (ESV)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:54 (ESV)
Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 11:24 (ESV)
Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

John 12:48 (ESV)
The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by livin'intheword:
Chris, you said


No rapture means just that, no rapture. I haven't been reading into anything. And you have yet to prove the Pri-trib Rapture wrong.

Paula<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amillennial does not mean no rapture, it means no millenium (and even that is a misnomer, as amils believe in a millenium, just that the 2nd coming is post the church age. Amil is better called nowmillennium.)

But invisible rapturists are the ones who must prove an invisible rapture, as it is nowhere taught in Scripture. The One Second Coming IS taught, so the teaching that the 2nd coming is invisible and silent (despite shouts, cries, and trumpets) and then followed by a physical. personal Third Coming must be the assertion proven.

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

[John Wells]

Chris,

The pre-trib rapture, as believed, is not a "coming" because Jesus does not "come to earth." Rather, we are "caught up to meet Him in the air." His "second coming" is the same as you believe.

The 1 Thess 4 "shout" and "trumpets" could very well only be heard by "the called!" You know, "those with eyes to see and ears to hear!"

Revelation 5:9-10 (ESV) And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." But angels soon join the creatures and the elders in praising the Lamb in v.11-12.

The Greek text used by the KJV indicates that the new song is sung by those who themselves have been redeemed: "Thou . . . has redeemed us to God . . . and hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth."

The NIV, however, reads, "You purchased men for God. . . . You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." If the KJV is correct, the 24 elders must represent the church or saints in general. If their song is impersonal as in the NIV and they simply are singing that Christ is the Redeemeer of all men, it opens the possibility that the 24 elders could be angels, though it does not expressly affirm it.

While scholars differ on this point, it would seem that since the elders are clothed in white, indicating purity; seated on thrones, suggesting responsibility and status; crowned with victors' wreaths seem to indicate that the elders had been judged and rewarded; and they themselves bear witness that they have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and, therefore, constitute a kingdom of priests. Such a description can only represent redeemed humanity, i.e. the OT and NT saints who are raptured and missing out on The Great Tribulation!

You better get this right on your seminary finals!

God bless, brother Chris!

 

[S. Baptist]

The Jew have an "old custom"

When a couple was "Betrothed", (engaged) the Boy would go to his "fathers's house" to "prepare" a room for them, the "date" he would return for his "Bride" was known only to him.

To add to the "excitment", he would appear to "steal" her away, even though everyone knew he was coming for her.

Back at his "Father's House", they would enter and remain in the room for Six days, food and all necessities were placed outside their door.


On the "Seventh day" they would emerge for a "celebration" by all the people.

I "wonder", why would Jews have a custom like this.

 

[livin'intheword]

You brought up a very good point S. Baptist!!!! I love it when people understand that our faith has Jewish roots!
The Rapture is explained in the nuptial chain of events in a traditional Hebrew wedding.
Ancient Ceremony:
The Bridegroom or an agent of the grooms fater would seek out a bride. On example of this is when Abraham sent a servent to find a bride for Isaac. We as Christians are sought by the Holy Spirit.
Often the bride would agree to the marrige without seeing her future groom. We as Christians love a heavenly groom we have not seen.
A price would be set for the bride. ex: Twenty camels, a dozen siliver bracelets and so on. This was called the "Mohar." We as Christians are bought with the blood of Christ.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A scribe would draw up the Ketubah or marriage contract stating the price of the bride, the promises of the groom and the rights of the bride. For us Christians our Ketubah is the Bible.
The groom presented a gift to the bride. Christs gift of Salvation
If the bride accepted the gift, they shared a cup of wine. The cup of the new covenant. And the betrothal was complete. The groom whould then travil to his fathers house to prepare a chupah, or wedding canopy. John 14:2-3 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. During this time the birde was set apart waiting for her groom to return. She would cleans herself with the mikvah, or a water bath, to purify herself for the coming wedding. She makes herself reading and STAYS ready. Keeping her oil lamp burning at night and extra oil on hand. We a Christians are to be "set apart" from things of this earth. We look for our Grooms return, letting not our light go out by night. We are cleansed with the mikvah by way of baptizing and the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit.
No one knew whenthe groom would return, not even the groom. He could not go until his fater approved of this sons preparations for his new bride.Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
When the groom was released by his father to get his bride, he arrived with a shout and blowing of a shofar, or trumpet.
He presented the marriage contract to the brides father,claimed her as his own, and then took her to his fathers house.

Just a little FYI into the Jewish Wedding

Paula

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: livin'intheword ]

 

[livin'intheword]

Chris, if you don't believe in an invisible rapture, do you also believe that we as saints will be part of the Great White Throne Judgment?

Paula

 

[Chris Temple]

Yes - there is one general ressurection, and one judgment of all men, saved and lost.

Romans 14:10 (ESV)
Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

Rev. 20:12-15 (ESV)
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. [13] And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. [14] Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. [15] And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

It's obvious here that the dead include all the dead, believers and unbelievers, and those written in the book of life, and those not written in the book of life.

 

[Kiffin]

Agreed Chris, It is also amazing that the Pre Trib rapure theory was practically unknown to Christian theology until the 1800's when Darby and Scofield formulated the idea of a secret rapture. Check historic Protestant and Baptist confessions and this idea was unknown of by them. It's popularity is only a little over 100 years old.

 

[tyndale1946]

There has been books a plenty written about the Rapture. Millions have already been spent millions on the Left Behind Series and christians are forking out their money right and left.

There are at least four mil doctrines... Pre, post, ah, and then there is the preterist view. A young convert and an old sound brother were talking about the rapture. The young man said well I for one am a premillennianlist what is your belief on the rapture? The old brother look at him and said well I'm a Panmillennianlist. The young man looked at him and said what belief is that? The old brother said come what may it will all pan out in the end... Brother Glen

[ March 19, 2002, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[n2ChristJ]

I pray for the rapture to come everyday. I can't wait. I guess Im a Pre-Trib if that means that the Rapture will come before the Tribulation.

I enjoyed the Left-Behind Series, there are a few things I question but I still really enjoyed them. Is there a Post that discuss the book I would like to know your opinion on the series.

your sis in Christ,

Chris VZ

 

[Ray Berrian]

Chris,

Two Judgments:

Judgment Seat of Christ--for Christians[II Cor. 5:10] This judgment was said in connection or [Rev. 22:12] context with the passing of dying saints into Heaven.


Great White Throne Judgment--Rev. 20:11

This judgment is for sinners only. Everything between verse 11-15 is foreboding, negative and connected with evil. Death, Hell, the Lake of Fire, the second death, cast into the lake of fire. Verse 11 says that ' . . . there was found no place for them.' We will have a place and it is close to Jesus in Heaven after our review before the Judgment Seat of Christ and the giving of rewards according to our service while on the earth.

Best regards,

Dr. Berrian

 

[Christopher]

The Scriptures teach that there will be only one physical resurrection at the end of time, which will include the righteous and the unrighteous.

(John 5:28, 29)

(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(Acts 24:14, 15)

(14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

(15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Compare the "last day" in these verses:

John 6:39, 40 - And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 - Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:48 - He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Why is it that Jesus said He would raise both the believers and unbelievers at the "last day?"

By His grace, Christopher

 

[pinoybaptist]

Pre-tribs usually speak of the rapture, as it is referred to, as being of two phases:
a. The secret phase - where only those who are the Lord's will hear the trumpet, and on which the Left Behind series of movies were based, and all believers standing before the judgment seat (as compared to the Great White Throne of Revelation) in order to receive their rewards or be rebuked, as the case may be which they take from first corinthians 3.

a.a- in the meantime, down below, the Anti-Christ will be reigning in a 50/50 (good and bad)seven year period culminating in the :

b. visible second phase of the Lord's return in order for Him to start a 1000 year reign to fulfill His earthly promise to the nation Israel and during which period He binds up Satan and casts him into the bottomless pit.

At first glance, a sound doctrine, until you consider the fact that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that speaks of a two-phased coming of the Lord preceded by a secret phase.

You read of a great shout, and the trumpet sound of the archangel, and over in Zechariah, the Mount of Olives cleaving in half when the Owner of this earth sets His sovereign foot upon it, and there surely is no secrecy in His coming with the clouds and being beheld in terror by those who crucified Him.

Nope. No secret rapture. I agree with the sound old brother, better to be a panmillenialist.

One judgment. Great White Throne. One being judged - all humankind, quick and dead, just and unjust, written in the Book of Life, and not written in the Book of Life.

 

[Michael D. Edwards]

I grew up under pre-trib rapture teaching. However, NONE of the texts speak of the timing apart from taking place after the Lord has come. Many say, "well it's pointless to go up and come right back down." Well folks, if we criticized what we thought was pointless about the Bible, where does that leave us?

I'm studying this topic every day as much as I can becuase I want it to be put to rest. Obviuosly, we must interpret the unclear scriptures from the clear. The statements about the general resurrection at the end by Christ are quite plain.

Also, the issue that pre-tribbers MUST make Matt 24 not speak of the rapture, for if they did, it clearly places it after hte Tribulation of those days. They discuss it's specifically Jewish nature. However, this same Jesus spoke privately to his disciples on other occasions which supposedly apply to the church. What is the standard for interpreting Matt 24 that way?

In Thessalonians, Paul says that the Day of the Lord can't come till the man of sin is revealed. IF he had just spent chapter 4 discussing the rapture (pre-trib supporters say he does), then why is he telling them not to worry about missing hte day of the Lord because it can't come until it is revealed. What practicality does that leave for the believer today?

Also, the idea of a particular 7 year tribulation period comes from where? ONLY in Daniel chapter 9? I'd be curiuos to find out more about that from pre-trib supporters as well.

If the church is raptured before the tribulation period, how does it account for the countelss number of gentiles saved. Will no one preach to them? IF God turns to a literal 144,000 Jews from each tribe, how is it that he has now become a respector of persons again?

These are just SOME of the questions raised by my study of the issue. I have a LOT that goes unanswered by pre-trib supporters.

They mostly also cling to the idea that God has not destined us for the wrath to come. I'm not sure how that means a pre-trib rapture. God's wrath at his second coming clearly isn't going to be poured out on us?

Well, that's enough ranting for now I guess

In Christ Alone because of Grace Alone,
Michael