Define Repentance

Thanks for the link I've read it already and have already stated my position and stand by it! Nothing further need be said by me and I'll let these other brethren beat this dead horse!... Brother Glen

 

As Glen and Tyndale are one and the same, I assume you mean Chris and Tyndale?

I have never denied man's responsibilty, only his ability.

So ..you agree. Men cannot repent until after regeneration. Right?

 

Chris absolutely........men cannot repent unless regenerated. John 3:3. That has been my point. Men cannot repent unless regenerated, yet God does not repent for them. Men must believe, men must repent, men must receive. Men that do not do these things will not find themselves amongst Christ and His church in end times.

In HIM,
Scott Bushey

 

Chris, I do not deny that one must be drawn by the Father. I do not say that one has the ability in and of himself to do anything toward God. However, I do not say that it is regeneration that enables repentance and faith. I say that for a couple of reasons.

1. Paul and Peter both preached repentance and faith to be saved not because they were saved.

2. Regeneration happens at the same time as justification which is exclusively by faith.

3. Death and dead throughout the N.T. almost (if not always) has the meaning of separation. What justification is there that this one text would mean anything else? In other words, a person is lost and completely separated from God and can do nothing to bridge the gap. He doesn't meet God halfway or anything like that. However, it is God in His grace that has built the bridge and effectively calls men to repentance and faith. Man did nothing in the process to merit or work for his salvation.

4. The Kingdom of God cannot be understood (that is what "see" means in this context) by the nonbeliever - 1 Cor. 2:14). That in no way nullifies what I believe.

5. If death means lifelessness, how does one sin? Also, if death does mean lifelessness, a case can be made for annihilation.

The primitive baptists have taken hyper-calvinism to its logical extreme without maintaining biblical truth. Tyndale, am I to assume that you are saying that one is a child of God BEFORE they believe? What would you do with Paul saying he was once a child of wrath? This is different shades of Calvinism. However, I can preach repentance and be consistent in my theology.

 

Chris,
So now I ask you, can a man be regenerated yet he repent?

In HIM,
Scott Bushey

 

Mr. Curtis let me leave you with one thought to ponder... When you were born did you cry before you had life? What about when you were born again did you cry before you had life?

Finally let me clear up a misconception of the Primitive Baptist that some accuse us of. I do not and neither do any of my Primitive Baptist brethren believe that you were saved before the foundation of the world. We do believe that we and all Gods children were put in Christ Jesus according to Gods plan before the foundation of the world. Being put in Christ Jesus is a done deal according to God to be carried out by God in time. The promises of God are sure and it is impossible for God to lie. All he gave his Son shall be saved. Thou shalt bring forth a Son and thou shalt call his name Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins... Brother Glen

 

Scott:

I agree completely.

 

Scott:

I think there is a human repentance that can occur, the kind that says "I know I've done wrong" in the unregenerate. God has instilled his law on every heart, and there remains within man enough of the image of God to recognize good and evil. One can feel sorry for doing wrong. But this human repentance is often being sorry for getting caught (a la a former president of ours) or I'm sorry that I feel so guilty. But this is not true God-given repentance which leads to saving faith. That can only be done by the regenerate man; the unregnerate cannot turn in true repentance for "the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Rom 8:7,8)

 

Certainly. No one is saved until they hear and respond to the gospel. But the very hearing and response is due to the effectual drawing act of God.

No. Justification is by faith; regeneration is by God. Regeneration means to be generated (genesis, created) again. Creation is purely an act of God. "One must be born again to see the kingdom of God". Regeneration must preceed faith, for dead men do not have faith, nor can they regenerate themselves.

You have contradicted your own words without realizing it: "a person is lost and completely separated from God and can do nothing to bridge the gap ...However, it is God in His grace that has built the bridge and effectively calls men to repentance and faith." This is classic Arminianism. God did his part - he built the bridge - but man must cross it. Therefore, man has saved himself, because he is smart enough to see the bridge and cross over it. God is then the helper of salvation, not the author and perfecter of it.

Spiritual death is just that - death. It is Ezekiel's dry bones. It cannot move an inch toward God. Ephes. 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast." In your scenario, man has every right to boast.

Romans 8:30 (ESV)
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Spiritual death means unable and unwilling to move toward God. Christ did not build a bridge toward Lazarus; instead he said "Lazarus, COME FORTH!" and he arose.

One sins because of one's fallen state. No one I know suggests that we are all lifeless corpses lying around on the ground. Spiritual death speaks of spiritual matters.

I agree that the PBs have taken Calvinism (not hyper-calvinism) to its extreme. No one is saved until they repent and believe. However all of the elect will certainly hear, turn and believe. This is assured in God's gracious plan of election and predestination. And one can only respond once they have been reborn from above, or else man rebirth's himself.

John 10:29 (ESV)
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

 

Chris, you have answered each point just ignored what I was saying. Whenever a particular Calvinist doesn't like another, he/she just throws out the old A-word. I said nothing that was Arminian. I said that God built the bridge and EFFECTUALLY calls people to salvation. Now an Arminian would say that He beckons people to come and they must make the final decision. I didn't say that, and I don't believe that.

Your whole hypothosis is based on the erroneous idea that Eph. 2:1 means that one is spiritually lifeless. It doesn't mean that. You offer no Scriptural justification for using Lazarus as your illustration.

We both believe that God must work in a person before he can repent. You have said yourself that God must draw. I agree with that. However, you cannot prove that the drawing of God is the same as regeneration.

You want to make regeneration and justification two separate events. Can you imagine this: a person is regenerated. That means he has life. That means he can understand and enter the kingdom of God. Then, at some point in the near future, he will exercise faith. For what reason? He doesn't need to. This is exactly why the primitives believe what they do about faith. You render it useless and unneccesary(sp?).

The words of Christ:
Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'

Since their hearts are "lifeless", how does it grow dull? How did Pharoah harden a "lifeless heart"?

The words of Paul in II Cor. 3 were mentioned by me already. It is very clear that repentance preceeds the unveiling. What about the verse that says, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."? It is in the same passage. The Lord enables one to repent. That is not regeneration, that is grace.

 

I didn't ignore what you said at all, but addressed it. I don't know if you are arminian, but the statement you made was. While on the surface people seem to argue against U, L, I and P, it is always T that they are ultimately opposed to. The idea that man is spiritually dead, unable to move toward God, and a natural God-hater, offends the senses. Nevertheless, that is what Scripture teaches.

Lazarus is widely recognized as typical of Jesus' call to dead sinners. In John 11:25, Jesu said ""I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live", setting the stage for the regeneration miracle. The divine call Jesus gave to Laz. illustrates the effectual call to the spiritually dead that raises them to spiritual life. (Eph 2:5).

It should also be understood that I am speaking of the logical order of salvation. Regeneration must precede repentance, otherwise repentance is a meritorious work of man. Existentially, regeneration is indivisible from faith and repentance.

It think is you who does not really understand total depravity. Here is what John Piper says concerning it:

Piper on TULIP

[ March 15, 2002, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

We need to keep in mind that the order being talked about is a logical order, not a chronological order. There is no time difference between regeneration and justification, simply a logical distinction held out through Scripture.

Preach the Word, you said that spiritual death (lifelessness) was erroneous to Eph 2:1. What in the world do you think dead in trespasses and sins means and what does it means when God who is rich in mercy made us alive????? That is spiritual death and spiritual life. The spiritually dead man cannot do related to spiritual life.

 

Chris and Pastor Larry, perhaps I am not being clear on my end (I think I am). A person is not lifeless. He is separated (the meaning of dead and death in the N.T.) from God and can do nothing to bridge the gap. In fact, he/she runs as fast as possible away from God. In a previous post, I listed several reasons why I do not agree with Chris' understanding of depravity. How could one sin (the spiritual realm) if one is lifeless? When we say that a person is dead, we know that they actually still exist (either in heaven or hell). A person's existence is still there; it is just so thoroughly contaminated by sin that it hates God.

I posted a quote from Matthew 12 about what Jesus said to the pharisees. It makes no sense if they are spiritually lifeless.

 

No one said people are lifeless. This is non sequiter. We are speaking of spiritual death. A person is spritually dead toward God. Did you read the Piper definition above? Again, cut from the above, spiritually dead means:

 

Chris, I fail to see where I denied what Piper said. I like Piper. He is one of my personal favorites. I just don't say that regeneration is the same thing as the drawing of God. I think that is grace that draws one to repentance and faith which regenerates. We both believe God must work in a person before they can repent. I will just leave it at that.