Define Repentance

[tyndale1946]

Thanks for the link I've read it already and have already stated my position and stand by it! Nothing further need be said by me and I'll let these other brethren beat this dead horse!... Brother Glen

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey:
Glenn and Tyndale,
Both of you state you understand total depravity but yet you deny mans responsibility in the equation.

As Glen and Tyndale are one and the same, I assume you mean Chris and Tyndale?

I have never denied man's responsibilty, only his ability.

Does God repent for these men? No, these men must repent on their own, yet you both seem to say that men cannot repent....this is not to imply that God does not give the gift of repentance or that the dead man, prior to regeneration is able to repent

So ..you agree. Men cannot repent until after regeneration. Right?

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Chris absolutely........men cannot repent unless regenerated. John 3:3. That has been my point. Men cannot repent unless regenerated, yet God does not repent for them. Men must believe, men must repent, men must receive. Men that do not do these things will not find themselves amongst Christ and His church in end times.

In HIM,
Scott Bushey

 

[Daniel David]

Chris, I do not deny that one must be drawn by the Father. I do not say that one has the ability in and of himself to do anything toward God. However, I do not say that it is regeneration that enables repentance and faith. I say that for a couple of reasons.

1. Paul and Peter both preached repentance and faith to be saved not because they were saved.

2. Regeneration happens at the same time as justification which is exclusively by faith.

3. Death and dead throughout the N.T. almost (if not always) has the meaning of separation. What justification is there that this one text would mean anything else? In other words, a person is lost and completely separated from God and can do nothing to bridge the gap. He doesn't meet God halfway or anything like that. However, it is God in His grace that has built the bridge and effectively calls men to repentance and faith. Man did nothing in the process to merit or work for his salvation.

4. The Kingdom of God cannot be understood (that is what "see" means in this context) by the nonbeliever - 1 Cor. 2:14). That in no way nullifies what I believe.

5. If death means lifelessness, how does one sin? Also, if death does mean lifelessness, a case can be made for annihilation.

The primitive baptists have taken hyper-calvinism to its logical extreme without maintaining biblical truth. Tyndale, am I to assume that you are saying that one is a child of God BEFORE they believe? What would you do with Paul saying he was once a child of wrath? This is different shades of Calvinism. However, I can preach repentance and be consistent in my theology.

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Chris,
So now I ask you, can a man be regenerated yet he repent?

In HIM,
Scott Bushey

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Thanx for all the great responses. I would say if there was no repentance, sin wouldn't bother us. If sin didn't bother us, we wouldn't feel the need for a savior. I need a savior.

I believe after reading everything, repentance preceeds regeneration.

 

[tyndale1946]

Mr. Curtis let me leave you with one thought to ponder... When you were born did you cry before you had life? What about when you were born again did you cry before you had life?

Finally let me clear up a misconception of the Primitive Baptist that some accuse us of. I do not and neither do any of my Primitive Baptist brethren believe that you were saved before the foundation of the world. We do believe that we and all Gods children were put in Christ Jesus according to Gods plan before the foundation of the world. Being put in Christ Jesus is a done deal according to God to be carried out by God in time. The promises of God are sure and it is impossible for God to lie. All he gave his Son shall be saved. Thou shalt bring forth a Son and thou shalt call his name Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins... Brother Glen

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey:
Chris absolutely........men cannot repent unless regenerated. John 3:3. That has been my point. Men cannot repent unless regenerated, yet God does not repent for them. Men must believe, men must repent, men must receive. Men that do not do these things will not find themselves amongst Christ and His church in end times.

In HIM,
Scott Bushey

Scott:

I agree completely.

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey:
Chris,
So now I ask you, can a man be regenerated yet he repent?

In HIM,
Scott Bushey

Scott:

I think there is a human repentance that can occur, the kind that says "I know I've done wrong" in the unregenerate. God has instilled his law on every heart, and there remains within man enough of the image of God to recognize good and evil. One can feel sorry for doing wrong. But this human repentance is often being sorry for getting caught (a la a former president of ours) or I'm sorry that I feel so guilty. But this is not true God-given repentance which leads to saving faith. That can only be done by the regenerate man; the unregnerate cannot turn in true repentance for "the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Rom 8:7,8)

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:

1. Paul and Peter both preached repentance and faith to be saved not because they were saved.

Certainly. No one is saved until they hear and respond to the gospel. But the very hearing and response is due to the effectual drawing act of God.

2. Regeneration happens at the same time as justification which is exclusively by faith.

No. Justification is by faith; regeneration is by God. Regeneration means to be generated (genesis, created) again. Creation is purely an act of God. "One must be born again to see the kingdom of God". Regeneration must preceed faith, for dead men do not have faith, nor can they regenerate themselves.

3. Death and dead throughout the N.T. almost (if not always) has the meaning of separation. What justification is there that this one text would mean anything else? In other words, a person is lost and completely separated from God and can do nothing to bridge the gap. He doesn't meet God halfway or anything like that. However, it is God in His grace that has built the bridge and effectively calls men to repentance and faith. Man did nothing in the process to merit or work for his salvation.

You have contradicted your own words without realizing it: "a person is lost and completely separated from God and can do nothing to bridge the gap ...However, it is God in His grace that has built the bridge and effectively calls men to repentance and faith." This is classic Arminianism. God did his part - he built the bridge - but man must cross it. Therefore, man has saved himself, because he is smart enough to see the bridge and cross over it. God is then the helper of salvation, not the author and perfecter of it.

Spiritual death is just that - death. It is Ezekiel's dry bones. It cannot move an inch toward God. Ephes. 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast." In your scenario, man has every right to boast.

Romans 8:30 (ESV)
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Spiritual death means unable and unwilling to move toward God. Christ did not build a bridge toward Lazarus; instead he said "Lazarus, COME FORTH!" and he arose.

5. If death means lifelessness, how does one sin? Also, if death does mean lifelessness, a case can be made for annihilation.

One sins because of one's fallen state. No one I know suggests that we are all lifeless corpses lying around on the ground. Spiritual death speaks of spiritual matters.

The primitive baptists have taken hyper-calvinism to its logical extreme without maintaining biblical truth. Tyndale, am I to assume that you are saying that one is a child of God BEFORE they believe? What would you do with Paul saying he was once a child of wrath? This is different shades of Calvinism. However, I can preach repentance and be consistent in my theology.

I agree that the PBs have taken Calvinism (not hyper-calvinism) to its extreme. No one is saved until they repent and believe. However all of the elect will certainly hear, turn and believe. This is assured in God's gracious plan of election and predestination. And one can only respond once they have been reborn from above, or else man rebirth's himself.

John 10:29 (ESV)
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

 

[Daniel David]

Chris, you have answered each point just ignored what I was saying. Whenever a particular Calvinist doesn't like another, he/she just throws out the old A-word. I said nothing that was Arminian. I said that God built the bridge and EFFECTUALLY calls people to salvation. Now an Arminian would say that He beckons people to come and they must make the final decision. I didn't say that, and I don't believe that.

Your whole hypothosis is based on the erroneous idea that Eph. 2:1 means that one is spiritually lifeless. It doesn't mean that. You offer no Scriptural justification for using Lazarus as your illustration.

We both believe that God must work in a person before he can repent. You have said yourself that God must draw. I agree with that. However, you cannot prove that the drawing of God is the same as regeneration.

You want to make regeneration and justification two separate events. Can you imagine this: a person is regenerated. That means he has life. That means he can understand and enter the kingdom of God. Then, at some point in the near future, he will exercise faith. For what reason? He doesn't need to. This is exactly why the primitives believe what they do about faith. You render it useless and unneccesary(sp?).

The words of Christ:
Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'

Since their hearts are "lifeless", how does it grow dull? How did Pharoah harden a "lifeless heart"?

The words of Paul in II Cor. 3 were mentioned by me already. It is very clear that repentance preceeds the unveiling. What about the verse that says, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."? It is in the same passage. The Lord enables one to repent. That is not regeneration, that is grace.

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
[QB]Chris, you have answered each point just ignored what I was saying. Whenever a particular Calvinist doesn't like another, he/she just throws out the old A-word. I said nothing that was Arminian.

I didn't ignore what you said at all, but addressed it. I don't know if you are arminian, but the statement you made was. While on the surface people seem to argue against U, L, I and P, it is always T that they are ultimately opposed to. The idea that man is spiritually dead, unable to move toward God, and a natural God-hater, offends the senses. Nevertheless, that is what Scripture teaches.

Your whole hypothosis is based on the erroneous idea that Eph. 2:1 means that one is spiritually lifeless. It doesn't mean that. You offer no Scriptural justification for using Lazarus as your illustration.

Lazarus is widely recognized as typical of Jesus' call to dead sinners. In John 11:25, Jesu said ""I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live", setting the stage for the regeneration miracle. The divine call Jesus gave to Laz. illustrates the effectual call to the spiritually dead that raises them to spiritual life. (Eph 2:5).

It should also be understood that I am speaking of the logical order of salvation. Regeneration must precede repentance, otherwise repentance is a meritorious work of man. Existentially, regeneration is indivisible from faith and repentance.

It think is you who does not really understand total depravity. Here is what John Piper says concerning it:

Total Depravity

When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man.

There is no doubt that man could perform more evil acts toward his fellow man than he does. But if he is restrained from performing more evil acts by motives that are not owing to his glad submission to God, then even his "virtue" is evil in the sight of God.

Romans 14:23 says, "Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." This is a radical indictment of all natural "virtue" that does not flow from a heart humbly relying on God's grace.

The terrible condition of man's heart will never be recognized by people who assess it only in relation to other men. Romans 14:23 makes plain that depravity is our condition in relation to God primarily, and only secondarily in relation to man. Unless we start here we will never grasp the totality of our natural depravity.

Man's depravity is total in at least four senses.

(1) Our rebellion against God is total. Apart from the grace of God there is no delight in the holiness of God, and there is no glad submission to the sovereign authority of God.

Of course totally depraved men can be very religious and very philanthropic. They can pray and give alms and fast, as Jesus said (Matthew 6:1-18). But their very religion is rebellion against the rights of their Creator, if it does not come from a childlike heart of trust in the free grace of God. Religion is one of the chief ways that man conceals his unwillingness to forsake self-reliance and bank all his hopes on the unmerited mercy of God (Luke 18:9-14; Colossians 2:20-23).

The totality of our rebellion is seen in Romans 3:9-10 and 18. "I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: None is righteous, no not one; no one seeks for God....There is no fear of God before their eyes."

It is a myth that man in his natural state is genuinely seeking God. Men do seek God. But they do not seek him for who he is. They seek him in a pinch as one who might preserve them from death or enhance their worldly enjoyments. Apart from conversion, no one comes to the light of God.

Some do come to the light. But listen to what John 3:20-21 says about them. "Every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."

Yes there are those who come to the light -- namely those whose deeds are the work of God. "Wrought in God" means worked by God. Apart from this gracious work of God all men hate the light of God and will not come to him lest their evil be exposed -- this is total rebellion. "No one seeks for God...There is no fear of God before their eyes!"

(2) In his total rebellion everything man does is sin.

In Romans 14:23 Paul says, "Whatever is not from faith is sin." Therefore, if all men are in total rebellion, everything they do is the product of rebellion and cannot be an honor to God, but only part of their sinful rebellion. If a king teaches his subjects how to fight well and then those subjects rebel against their king and use the very skill he taught them to resist him, then even those skills become evil.

Thus man does many things which he can only do because he is created in the image of God and which in the service of God could be praised. But in the service of man's self-justifying rebellion, these very things are sinful.

In Romans 7:18 Paul says, "I know that no good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh." This is a radical confession of the truth that in our rebellion nothing we think or feel is good. It is all part of our rebellion. The fact that Paul qualifies his depravity with the words, "that is, in my flesh," shows that he is willing to affirm the good of anything that the Spirit of God produces in him (Romans 15:18). "Flesh" refers to man in his natural state apart from the work of God's Spirit. So what Paul is saying in Romans 7:18 is that apart from the work of God's Spirit all we think and feel and do is not good.

NOTE: We recognize that the word "good" has a broad range of meanings. We will have to use it in a restricted sense to refer to many actions of fallen people which in relation are in fact not good.

For example we will have to say that it is good that most unbelievers do not kill and that some unbelievers perform acts of benevolence. What we mean when we call such actions good is that they more or less conform to the external pattern of life that God has commanded in Scripture.

However, such outward conformity to the revealed will of God is not righteousness in relation to God. It is not done out of reliance on him or for his glory. He is not trusted for the resources, though he gives them all. Nor is his honor exalted, even though that's his will in all things (1 Corinthians 10:31). Therefore even these "good" acts are part of our rebellion and are not "good" in the sense that really counts in the end -- in relation to God.

(3) Man's inability to submit to God and do good is total.

Picking up on the term "flesh" above (man apart from the grace of God) we find Paul declaring it to be totally enslaved to rebellion. Romans 8:7-8 says, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

The "mind of the flesh" is the mind of man apart from the indwelling Spirit of God ("You are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God really dwells in you," Romans 8:9). So natural man has a mindset that does not and cannot submit to God. Man cannot reform himself.

Ephesians 2:1 says that we Christians were all once "dead in trespasses and sins." The point of deadness is that we were incapable of any life with God. Our hearts were like a stone toward God (Ephesians 4:18; Ezekiel 36:26). Our hearts were blind and incapable of seeing the glory of God in Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4-6). We were totally unable to reform ourselves.

(4) Our rebellion is totally deserving of eternal punishment.

Ephesians 2:3 goes on to say that in our deadness we were "children of wrath." That is, we were under God's wrath because of the corruption of our hearts that made us as good as dead before God.

The reality of hell is God's clear indictment of the infiniteness of our guilt. If our corruption were not deserving of an eternal punishment God would be unjust to threaten us with a punishment so severe as eternal torment. But the Scriptures teach that God is just in condemning unbelievers to eternal hell (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Matthew 5:29f; 10:28; 13:49f; 18:8f; 25:46; Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10). Therefore, to the extent that hell is a total sentence of condemnation, to that extent must we think of ourselves as totally blameworthy apart from the saving grace of God.

In summary, total depravity means that our rebellion against God is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sin, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.

It is hard to exaggerate the importance of admitting our condition to be this bad. If we think of ourselves as basically good or even less than totally at odds with God, our grasp of the work of God in redemption will be defective. But if we humble ourselves under this terrible truth of our total depravity, we will be in a position to see and appreciate the glory and wonder of the work of God discussed in the next four points.

Piper on TULIP

[ March 15, 2002, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

We need to keep in mind that the order being talked about is a logical order, not a chronological order. There is no time difference between regeneration and justification, simply a logical distinction held out through Scripture.

Preach the Word, you said that spiritual death (lifelessness) was erroneous to Eph 2:1. What in the world do you think dead in trespasses and sins means and what does it means when God who is rich in mercy made us alive????? That is spiritual death and spiritual life. The spiritually dead man cannot do related to spiritual life.

 

[Daniel David]

Chris and Pastor Larry, perhaps I am not being clear on my end (I think I am). A person is not lifeless. He is separated (the meaning of dead and death in the N.T.) from God and can do nothing to bridge the gap. In fact, he/she runs as fast as possible away from God. In a previous post, I listed several reasons why I do not agree with Chris' understanding of depravity. How could one sin (the spiritual realm) if one is lifeless? When we say that a person is dead, we know that they actually still exist (either in heaven or hell). A person's existence is still there; it is just so thoroughly contaminated by sin that it hates God.

I posted a quote from Matthew 12 about what Jesus said to the pharisees. It makes no sense if they are spiritually lifeless.

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
Chris and Pastor Larry, perhaps I am not being clear on my end (I think I am). A person is not lifeless.

No one said people are lifeless. This is non sequiter. We are speaking of spiritual death. A person is spritually dead toward God. Did you read the Piper definition above? Again, cut from the above, spiritually dead means:

Ephesians 2:1 says that we Christians were all once "dead in trespasses and sins." The point of deadness is that we were incapable of any life with God. Our hearts were like a stone toward God (Ephesians 4:18; Ezekiel 36:26). Our hearts were blind and incapable of seeing the glory of God in Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4-6). We were totally unable to reform ourselves.

(4) Our rebellion is totally deserving of eternal punishment.

Ephesians 2:3 goes on to say that in our deadness we were "children of wrath." That is, we were under God's wrath because of the corruption of our hearts that made us as good as dead before God.

In summary, total depravity means that our rebellion against God is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sin, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.

It is hard to exaggerate the importance of admitting our condition to be this bad. If we think of ourselves as basically good or even less than totally at odds with God, our grasp of the work of God in redemption will be defective. But if we humble ourselves under this terrible truth of our total depravity, we will be in a position to see and appreciate the glory and wonder of the work of God...

 

[Daniel David]

Chris, I fail to see where I denied what Piper said. I like Piper. He is one of my personal favorites. I just don't say that regeneration is the same thing as the drawing of God. I think that is grace that draws one to repentance and faith which regenerates. We both believe God must work in a person before they can repent. I will just leave it at that.