Dispensational belief?

Ed,

Good morning. I do not have time to make post. Because I just get home form 3rd shift job. This afternoon, at 1 pm, I would have to pick up my friend at the airport. Later tonight I will have to go to work. This week, I will make post to reply back to you.

Your recently comment show lot of logicals these are your opinions. Many of these are not find in the Bible.

You saying Jewish saints shall enter millennial with physical, also, survived tribulation saints will repopulated the world in the millennial.

Premillennialism have a SERIOUS problemn with its teaching about repopulate the world beyond Christ's coming.

It is unbiblical.

I urge you to read whole Matthew chapter 24 and 25 telling these things what will be happened. Pretribs believe there will be another second chance for people who will miss rapture will go through tribulaiton to become saved. Thier teaching is unbiblical.

Christ telling us of Matt. 24:37-41 about the lesson of the flood, what it done with whole humankind. Flood came and took them ALL AWAY, so also, it shall be same at Lord's coming. When Christ shall come again, He shall send His angels to take all unbelievers away for the judgement. Also, Luke 17:34-37 clear telling us, when Christ shall come, these unbelievers shall be taken away, for to be eaten alive by vultures.

Also, Matt. 25:1-12 is the clearest proof, that there will be no another second chance for any person to repent or to become saved beyond Christ's coming. When Christ once comes, then it is FINISHED - 2 Cor. 6:2. Time for the world to be judged.

There shall be NO survived unbeliever to enter into eternality with Christ after his coming at the judgment day. All unbelievers(goats) shall be cast away into the lake of fire right away follow at Christ's coming - Matt. 25:31-46.

Remember, Matt. 24:14 tells us, the gospel is still open to the world in THIS present age. When once Christ comes, then the age is FINISHED, means the gospel is FINISHED.

Matt. 24:29-31 is so very clear, that we all shall be gathering together follow after tribulation. You cannot find a single verse in chapter 24 saying that Christ shall come before tribulation. So, pretribulationism is a fallacy.

Later this week, I will discuss more as what Ed saying about amills and others in his previous post.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

http://www.eternallifeministries.org/lrs_israel.htm

A good piece that deals with the issues discussed here by L.R. Shelton called the true Israel of God.

 

Personally? I think "he" is Michael, the archangel, protector of Israel. He stands down (translated "stands up" in Daniel, but the Hebrew could just as easily be translated as "stands down" or "stands still"), after which all heck breaks loose (the great tribulation).

It's Michael's job to protect Israel. When he "stands down", he's effectively taken out of the way and that allows the time of trouble to occur.

Notice the similarity of the description of the time of trouble and the description of the great tribulation in the NT. Also notice that it doesn't occur until Michael "stands up". Most people think of it as a time when Michael "arises" (it's even translated that way in NIV) to protect his people. But if that's the case, he does a pretty terrible job, because that's the moment when everything goes sour. Some protector! So "stands still" or "stands down" makes more sense, since it is only after Michael "stands down" that all the trouble breaks loose.

That's the way I see it. Your mileage may vary. </font>[/QUOTE]Jude 9, though, shows that Michael, nor any created being has power over satan. He turned satan over to the Lord.

 

Amen Deafposttrib, when the Lord comes back judgement will take place. I expect to hear him say "come ye blessed of my Father" or depart ye worker of iniquity.
Preach what Jesus said himself. "if you die in your sins where I am you cannot come".
When you think you have learned something new always refer back to what Jesus himself said about the matter and if it don't compare with His sayings, you have it wrong. Start over!!!
peace

 

That's assuming he is holding back satan. That's not how the passage reads, though.

It's more like the restrainer is restraining the effects of the working of satan (lawlessness and deception), not satan himself. The lawless one is not satan himself, anyway, but is at most empowered by satan.

 

Ed,

What are you saying here regarding Dispy belief?
Many of them teach that the Elect of Matthew 24:31 are Jews being re-gathered to Israel.
________________________________________________
"But for those who say Matthew 24:31 is for the Gentile CHurch, they also are damned for their viewpoint. Personally I teach that Matthew 24:31 is where the gathering of the saints, AKA THE RAPTURE is mentioned by Jesus".
________________________________________________

If you are saying you are one of those who believes the Rapture of Matt.24:31 is a Post-
Trib event; who is it that damns you for believing the truth??

Mel

 

The "Day of the Lord" "ends the trib" and marks the end of the six days and start of the "Seventh day", the MK.

In the "day of the lord", (first resurrection) Jesus returns with "All his Saints", both Church/trib, the "Angel reaper" will separte the "Wheat/Tares", casting the Tares into Hell, the Tares are not Judged at this time but later at the GWT, the "WHEAT" are the "physical survivor" of the trib, these will enter the MK and produce Children, since the resurrected neither marry/given in marriage, righteous people will live considerably "longer" lifes in the MK than now, but nevertheless, will die within the 1000 years, later to be Judged at the GWT as the "Sheep" among the "Goats".

Jesus will conduct the "BEMA SEAT" judgment when he returns for "REWARDS", Bind up satan, then we will "live and reign" with him for the "seventh day". (1000 years)

1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


Lu 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re 20:4 and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for "very age". (old)

5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, (in the "EIGHTH DAY") Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne,

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.



"IF" you'll recall, when Jesus returns the "Angel reaper" cast the Tares into hell, they are not judged at that time, the only time both saved/lost appear together for Judgement is at the GWT, The previous righteous have already been Judge, this is why the "Second death" has no power over them.

This is the only time those "in hell" come out to stand Judgment.

All Judgment is committed to Jesus, so this is Jesus sitting on the GWT.


Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall THE KING (not SON/Prince) say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The "Father" is in the "SON".

[ March 15, 2006, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Me4Him ]

 

That's assuming he is holding back satan. That's not how the passage reads, though.

It's more like the restrainer is restraining the effects of the working of satan (lawlessness and deception), not satan himself. The lawless one is not satan himself, anyway, but is at most empowered by satan. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think it's assuming he's holding back satan. In the text, it was only a dispute over the body of Moses. The "mystery of iniquity" is far greater than a dispute over a dead body, and Michael had no power over that. He certainly has no power over sin (MOI), or holding back the antichrist.

 

Again, I'm not claiming that Michael is holding back the antichrist. He's restraining the great tribulation from occurring by protecting Israel. There's a war over us among principalities and powers that is going on, but we don't see this first hand. We only see the effects. (See Ephesians 6, and Daniel and the angel fighting the prince of persia). In fact, there are sections (I can't recall the verses off the top of my head) that illustrate that there are leaders in the OT who are referred to as both real people and angelic/demonic bad guys - indicating that the real people are either posessed or controlled by spiritual powers. So what happens in the war we can't see often overlaps what happens here on earth.

Michael is the head honcho working against the fight against Israel. If Michael stands down, then the bad guys among the principalities and powers can do things in Israel they can't do now because they are being restrained.

I'm not a dispensationalist, but I do believe the great tribulation is an Israel-centered event. One can figure that out from Matthew 24, because the people are told to flee from areas in Israel -- there's no mention that we should flee New York. So for me, it all fits together very nicely. Michael stands down, and then all heck breaks loose in Israel because the bad guys among the principalities and powers can have their way with the Jews.

 

Again, I'm not claiming that Michael is holding back the antichrist, himself, but is holding back that part of spiritual warfare that would allow the antichrist to not only appear but to be successful in his endeavors.

He's restraining the great tribulation from occurring by protecting Israel. There's a war over us among principalities and powers that is going on, but we don't see this first hand. We only see the effects. (See Ephesians 6, and Daniel and the angel fighting the prince of persia). In fact, there are sections (I can't recall the verses off the top of my head) that illustrate that there are leaders in the OT who are referred to as both real people and angelic/demonic bad guys - indicating that the real people are either posessed or controlled by spiritual powers. So what happens in the war we can't see often overlaps what happens here on earth.

Michael is the head honcho working against the fight against Israel. If Michael stands down, then the bad guys among the principalities and powers can do things in Israel they can't do now because they are being restrained.

I'm not a dispensationalist, but I do believe the great tribulation is an Israel-centered event. One can figure that out from Matthew 24, because the people are told to flee from areas in Israel -- there's no mention that we should flee New York. So for me, it all fits together very nicely. Michael stands down, and then all heck breaks loose in Israel because the bad guys among the principalities and powers can have their way with the Jews. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

Sorry - I meant to edit my post, not quote it, but that'll have to do.

 

npetreley,

I note you did not reply to the following which
reveals that God will "remove the restraint and
the restrainer" so that Antichrist is revealed:

The reference which you alluded to, and which seems like a reference to what I wrote, is incorrectly attributed by Phillip to me. Unknowingly he is attacking me over what someone else wrote above.

In the future, please identify whom you are
quoting so such misinformation can be avoided:
______________________________________________
"I looked at the site you have linked and it's such a jumble that I can hardly get through any of it. There are TONS of assumptions in there that aren't explicitly stated in scripture, and they aren't separated out from scripture, identified as assumptions or backed with scripture references to explain how the author(s) came to those conclusions".
_______________________________________________
I too looked at the site and saw the "jumble"!
I always back up what I write with Scripture!!

It seems you and I are mostly in agreement. The
initials S.C. refer to the second coming of
Christ.

On the matter of the restrainer, I think he/it
will be removed just before Satan is cast from
heaven. Michael's purpose is to instigate all that happens on earth as a RESULT of casting Satan to earth; whereas the restrainer must be removed because of God's judgment on apostasy! The War in Heaven follows Babylon's fall, IMO.

Casting out Satan enhances the Judgment on those who "commit fornication" under Mystery Babylon and who then continue the System under the Beast. At the same time, Israel must be prepared to meet their Messiah and "many in the TRUE Church will be purged or purified and refined" so "all the Saints will be *counted* worthy".
Dan.12:10-11; Rev.12:10-11; I Thess.3:13: 5:23; 2 Thess.1:5,11; Mark 8:38.

The ECF (early church fathers) and reformed theologians considered the restrainer to be lawful government which is administrated by those whom God appoints as rulers. Rom.13.

We know Babylon the Great will be destroyed
at Midweek of Daniel's 70th Seven and that
the remnants of lawful government will go
down with her fall at the hands of 10 kings.

That is when Michael will cast Satan from
heaven to make war against the Saints by
empowering the Beast as the 8th King. The
restrainer of the Beast that "was, is not,
yet is about to become the 8th King" will
be removed when God judges the FALSE church
and replaces it with the rule of the Beast.

There is no evidence that the Beast rules
the entire world prior to the fall of Babylon
the Great at Midweek of Daniel's 70th Seven.

So, instead of the Holy Spirit in the TRUE church being the restrainer, it must be
the apostasy and its "headship" in the FALSE church that will be "taken out of the midst" of lawful govern ment and replaced by the Lawless One". 2 Thess.2.

Michael continues to "stand up" for God's
people; but it is God's will that the ten
kings who destroy Babylon be the instrument
for "removing the restraint" and Michael's
act the means of impelling Satan to exert "great anger" (Rev.12:12; Greek) against the Woman and then "wrath" (vs.17) against the "rest of her seed who keep the commands of God and have the testimony of Jesus". Israel and the Church are targets of the "personified" Beast until Christ appears. Rev.12:12-17.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Ed,

Quote from Ed: "I don't know where //Jesus said we "will know the End is Near"//

The reason you confess to not knowing where
Jesus said "we will know when the end is near,
even at the doors" is because you did not absorb the verse I gave you, i.e., Matt.24:33.

When will you know? "When you see ALL these
things happening" including the signs of
Seal Six and the "sign of the presence of
the Son of Man; after the great tribulation"! Matt.24:29-30.

Absorb the Word of Jesus and you too will Know!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Another blinder:

Church and Israel distinct and separate!

Wrong: True Israel is the church with believing Gentilse grafted in. The early disciples were Jewish. They were promised the Holy Spirit. The New Covenant was made to Jewish disciples of Jesus.

Jesus was Jewish!!!

This dichotomy of the church and Israel is the worst blinder, in my opinion, and generates all of the rest.

 

Sorry, DeafPosttrib, but you are wrong. My wife graduated from Midwestern in 1978. (She found me getting ready to go to Japan and we both found happiness in 1979!) The chapel is "Lakin Chapel," named after B. R. Lakin, not "Larkin" after Clarence Larkin.