RE: was this a "real" Baptist church?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free2know:
I do not think that would be very Christian like of me, nor very prudent to divulge the individual name of the church or pastor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would be very Christian like of you to give the name, location, and pastor's name of the church you are referring to. That way maybe someone can offer verification of your story instead of relying upon your biased opinions.

 

Then again, maybe not. Stating names could result in legal liabilities for such things as slander -- even if they are unjustified. You may not understand the way this system works. Naming names in a public forum like this is probably completely unproductive. I know I wouldn't name names. There are people on this board who would come down on my head BIG TIME if I named names because these are respected, well-known individuals and people will not believe what they don't want to hear. The fact that I know from first-hand experience will do nothing in the face of blind devotion. On the other hand, general knowledge of what abusive spiritual leadership looks like can go far to helping people avoid it, recognize it when they see it, realize they are not alone in having experienced it, and MAYBE even reach some people who have given up on God and/or the church because of it.

-- Danette

[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: Danette ]

 

The following site gives a little information concerning churches that have banded together around the ideas of unincorporation, etc.

Unregistered Baptist Fellowship

DISCLAIMER: I in no way mean to imply these are "spiritually abusive" churches, just that they generally agree with the "anti-government" position taken by the church mentioned by free2know. (Some might prefer to call this an "anti-government interference" position)

[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

free2know said
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thank you for your objective post. I believe some of the attack mongers are confused to my main issue which is not to accuse all unincorporated fundy independent separatist of spiritual abuse, far from it! I only accuse the one church I was affiliated with of that, and that just happened to be their position on things.
I feel these people (at this ONE church) are giving Baptists a negative connotation.

My other reason for starting this thread was to have people realize the problem of spiritual abuse which was more articulately addressed by the other thread, entitled spiritual abuse.

If people feel threatened by me, I can only ask WHY?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I have a question for you. Was it before or after you read these books on spiritual abuse,that you realized that you were being abused?

Paula

 

There are multitudes of "Christians" that refuse to submit to any type of spiritual authority. That is why there are so many church hoppers these days and they are the first ones to cry "wolf" when their feelings get hurt.

The term "spiritual abuse" is such a subjective word that it means absolutely nothing. Yes, there are pastors and churches that have become mean-spirited but to call that "spiritual abuse" is idiotic.

A "real" Baptist church is defined by the scriptures, not by you or anyone else.

Your refusal to give actual names and places is equivalent to character assassination by gossip. I think you are afraid of the truth.

[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: Pioneer ]

 

Pioneer and livingintheword, you are demonstrating both your ignorance and arrogance. Just because you've never experienced it doesn't mean it isn't real. You have NO place judging that of which you know nothing.

-- Danette

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Pioneer and livingintheword, you are demonstrating both your ignorance and arrogance. Just because you've never experienced it doesn't mean it isn't real. You have NO place judging that of which you know nothing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First and foremost I would like to except your apology. Secondly I would like to ask you to define "assume." My point was this, free2know has talked about spiritual abuse, stateing many books that go more in depth than s/he was willing to go. S/he felt concerned that s/he had been abused, but then refused to protect other brothers and sisters from the same pain s/he had felt. For all we know someone on this board could be attending the very same church. I never stated that it wasn't real my dear.

Thanks a bunch
Paula

 

If I misunderstood I certainly apologize. However, the tone of both your post and Pioneer's seemed to be quite caustic and more than a little skeptical.

I will also admit that this is a subject about which I feel passionately because of my personal experience. I have more than a little trouble tolerating people who defend the types of churches that foster an abusive environment -- the depths of my feelings could have caused me to over-react because it happens SO much. I've been seeing it for over 17 years. It's consistent and I get VERY tired of people's insistence on defending the system.

The attitude that I FEEL like I'm hearing here is the same that I have been beating my head against for years. It's the same attitude that is protecting my brother's (and a whole bunch of other boys) molester because there's no "proof" -- so the man gets away with the fact that he is still molesting little boys. It's the same attitude that protected the president of my college for over 20 years in spite of constant and gross immorality. And even though I knew the man hadn't changed because he never repented in the first place (despite the crocodile tears) I was scoffed at and reprimanded for my "judgmental" attitude. And even though I was eventually proven right, that man's fans STILL defend him. I find that intolerable.

You can't just speak out against these people in a public forum. If I personally know anyone who is thinking about associating with the people about whom I have personal experience I definitely and PRIVATELY speak out. I won't say anything to people whom I know have their minds already made up. There's nothing I can say that will make any difference. AND there are legal issue involved in making public statements about an issue such as abuse when it's as "vague" as spiritual abuse. It's not like anybody is wearing purple bruises that can be photographed. How do you "prove" that a certain well-known leader had a lewd conversation about you in your hearing? If I said such a thing about XYZ preacher whom you loved and respected would you believe me -- someone you've never met? Not only would you not believe me, your response would look an awful lot like the posts I've read here from you and Pioneer.

Addressing the question about whether identification occurred after reading a book, of course I cannot answer for someone else. However, I can give you a personal example. I was molested when I was 5 years old. I always had these memories that I tried to ignore, but I didn't understand them. It wasn't until I was 27 and heard, then read, information about molestation that I finally realized that my experiences had a label. My memories predate BY FAR my knowledge of the label used to describe them. Does that make my molestation less real? I certainly hope you wouldn't say yes. My memories weren't buried or submerged and suddenly appeared after exposure to information about molestation. Those memories were always there. I could always describe EXACTLY what happened to me. I just didn't know what it was called.

I have previously seen people criticize and minimize claims of abuse if there is any mention of having read a book, going to a counselor or watching a program about abuse. I know there are some people who will use info to manufacture false memories after the fact. But it is MORE THAN A LITTLE INSULTING and piles pain on top of great pain for people to minimize what I know I've experienced just because they THINK they know better than me what my life has been like. There's no realistic excuse for someone else to criticize or question or denigrate my personal experiences.

The reason that I feel strongly about this is because it is UNBELIEVABLY common in the church. Christians, who should be our loving brothers and supportive of us in our hurt, are OFTEN the very ones sticking the knife in our backs with their judgment. Do you have any idea how much hurt I have experienced because Christian "brothers" refused to believe that my meek and mild Christian husband could possibly be abusive in the privacy of our own home? I walked through 14 years of abuse and nearly lost my children and got only a very tiny dab of support from the church -- the ones I should have been able to turn to in my pain. But I had to walk alone through it all. As it happened, it made me stronger. But it shouldn't have to be that way. And it is the very reason why I want to reach out to others who are not getting any support from their churches either.

I really think there's far less likelihood of me helping someone who has "manufactured" abuse memories than helping someone who really has been mistreated. The same is true of the church. Why do we ASSUME that claims of abuse are wrong instead of giving the benefit of the doubt? What earthly thing is gained by that? You know what that does? It further hurts people who are already wounded. I think that's inexcusable.

There are some descriptions of spiritual abuse on the other thread about spiritual abuse. If you can read those descriptions and NOT think they describe literal spiritual abuse then we certainly have no common ground for discussion. If you agree that they do describe true abuse then there's no reason for the disagreement appearing in this thread as far as I can see.

-- Danette

 

Pioneer, Living in the Word, please see my post in the "Spiritual Abuse" thread. Perhaps you'll get a glimmer of what Free is talking about. It's not the same church Free attended, but it's the same kind of pastor.

Spiritual abuse is apparently Free's word for someone who uses the Bible to thump you soundly about the head and ears because you don't conform to THEIR way of thinking.

Examples: The pastor I described in the other thread once cornered a 16 year old boy and severely questioned his salvation because the boy had dyed the top of his hair blond. I may not agree with what the kid did, but I think his parents need to address it, and I certainly do NOT think it had anything to do with his salvation. In fact, this same 16 year old kid used to go down to the "slum" area of town and play basketball with the less fortunate kids; in between games, he's read gospel tracts to them.

This same pastor praised another man in the church for not letting a kid on the bus because the boy would not remove his earring. In other words, it was a-okay for that boy not to hear the Word of God simply because he was wearing an earring....

This same pastor publicly pronounced from the pulpit that the women of this church would only wear dresses, and that if they didn't, well, they needed to get right with God. This same pastor's wife and daughters regularly wore shorts outside of church.

This same pastor also preached more than once about the sins of wearing revealing clothing; but his daughter and daughter-in-law regularly wore sleeveless dresses that gave us "free shots."

This same pastor told the women of the church that if they had small children, they needed to be home with those small children and not out in the work force. His own wife still had one who wasn't in school yet, but they shipped him off to a babysitter each day so she could go work to help pay the bills.

This same pastor preached the evils of television regularly; but God help you if you got in the way of his basketball game or John Wayne movie on TBS.

Finally, this pastor loved to condemn the other churches in our town. He especially loves to condemn the church I'm currently attending, saying it was unbiblically founded (because it was founded by ex-members of his congregation). This same pastor also has a history of leaving churches where he was the assistant pastor and starting churches of his own--without authorization or even telling the pastor he was under.

That, Pioneer and Living in the Word, is what Free is talking about with "spiritual abuse." It's hypocrisy, being double-minded, and basically teaching legalism instead of teaching Christ. It's saying "this is MY church, I'm the pastor, and you'll do what I say" instead of saying "this is GOD'S church, and you'll do what He says."

Because I'm in the military, I've been moved around a lot. I've experienced several different types of pastors and churches, and I have to say (thank the Lord) that this type of pastor is NOT the norm. But I also thank God that I did come across this kind of pastor, because it taught me a LOT about myself and about my walk with God.

Free, I encourage you to look up other independent fundamental Baptist churches. You may be happy with where you are, but please take the lessons you learned from your past church and apply them here as well.

 

Free At Last,

Could you email me at genjulie@yahoo.com

I sympathize with your experiences in an abusive church and would like to direct you to a link that will help. I tried to email you but was denied access to your email address.

genjulie

 

If you don't mind, Dr. Bob, I'd appreciate getting the name of the college through private message or e-mail. Thanks.

 

The college is now defunct so it is no danger to anyone else. Various individuals and associates are still above ground and breathing, but the college went under when it was exposed that the "degrees" they were offering were illegal and if they didn't go under we all could have sued the daylights out of them for all the tuition we had paid (although that wasn't the official reason for closing the doors, of course. There was an appropriate whitewash. And yes, I'm prejudiced and believe they lied about the reason for shutting it down. )

-- Danette