I do not think that would be very Christian like of me, nor very prudent to divulge the individual name of the church or pastor. I am trying hard to forget the pain of that church entirely and move on. I can tell you this church was supportive of the Temple Baptist (I believe that was their name) anyway a church in Indianapolis who lost their church this past year to the feds for nonpayment of employer's taxes. The old church began to get increasingly anti-government. And what do you think that had to do with the gospel of Christ? Squat, that is what I thought anyway. Watch the news,I fully expect someday this church will make itself and its weird agendas fully known.
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RE: was this a "real" Baptist church?
- Thread starter free2know
- Start date
P
Pioneer
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free2know:
I do not think that would be very Christian like of me, nor very prudent to divulge the individual name of the church or pastor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It would be very Christian like of you to give the name, location, and pastor's name of the church you are referring to. That way maybe someone can offer verification of your story instead of relying upon your biased opinions.
I do not think that would be very Christian like of me, nor very prudent to divulge the individual name of the church or pastor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It would be very Christian like of you to give the name, location, and pastor's name of the church you are referring to. That way maybe someone can offer verification of your story instead of relying upon your biased opinions.
Then again, maybe not. Stating names could result in legal liabilities for such things as slander -- even if they are unjustified. You may not understand the way this system works. Naming names in a public forum like this is probably completely unproductive. I know I wouldn't name names. There are people on this board who would come down on my head BIG TIME if I named names because these are respected, well-known individuals and people will not believe what they don't want to hear. The fact that I know from first-hand experience will do nothing in the face of blind devotion. On the other hand, general knowledge of what abusive spiritual leadership looks like can go far to helping people avoid it, recognize it when they see it, realize they are not alone in having experienced it, and MAYBE even reach some people who have given up on God and/or the church because of it.
-- Danette
[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: Danette ]
-- Danette
[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: Danette ]
Brilliant minds think alike Danette
This individual definitely seems a bit overinvolved in the specifics, and I question their motivation. What does it matter? I have other people who can back me in my opinions,including my neighbors who left the church, the Husband now an atheist, the wife a member of another nondenominational church.
FYI Pioneer, I am college educated as is my husband and I have had several college level religion classes, I am not a complete dolt! I do not think you are one either. Who is the biased one? I am relaying my experiences, you cannot possibly understand the dynamics. I take you at face value, you take me at mine.
Peace
FYI Pioneer, I am college educated as is my husband and I have had several college level religion classes, I am not a complete dolt! I do not think you are one either. Who is the biased one? I am relaying my experiences, you cannot possibly understand the dynamics. I take you at face value, you take me at mine.
Peace
The following site gives a little information concerning churches that have banded together around the ideas of unincorporation, etc.
Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
DISCLAIMER: I in no way mean to imply these are "spiritually abusive" churches, just that they generally agree with the "anti-government" position taken by the church mentioned by free2know. (Some might prefer to call this an "anti-government interference" position)
[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
DISCLAIMER: I in no way mean to imply these are "spiritually abusive" churches, just that they generally agree with the "anti-government" position taken by the church mentioned by free2know. (Some might prefer to call this an "anti-government interference" position)
[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
Thank you for your objective post. I believe some of the attack mongers are confused to my main issue which is not to accuse all unincorporated fundy independent separatist of spiritual abuse, far from it! I only accuse the one church I was affiliated with of that, and that just happened to be their position on things.
I feel these people (at this ONE church) are giving Baptists a negative connotation.
My other reason for starting this thread was to have people realize the problem of spiritual abuse which was more articulately addressed by the other thread, entitled spiritual abuse.
If people feel threatened by me, I can only ask WHY?
I feel these people (at this ONE church) are giving Baptists a negative connotation.
My other reason for starting this thread was to have people realize the problem of spiritual abuse which was more articulately addressed by the other thread, entitled spiritual abuse.
If people feel threatened by me, I can only ask WHY?
livin'intheword
New Member
free2know said
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thank you for your objective post. I believe some of the attack mongers are confused to my main issue which is not to accuse all unincorporated fundy independent separatist of spiritual abuse, far from it! I only accuse the one church I was affiliated with of that, and that just happened to be their position on things.
I feel these people (at this ONE church) are giving Baptists a negative connotation.
My other reason for starting this thread was to have people realize the problem of spiritual abuse which was more articulately addressed by the other thread, entitled spiritual abuse.
If people feel threatened by me, I can only ask WHY?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And I have a question for you. Was it before or after you read these books on spiritual abuse,that you realized that you were being abused?
Paula
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thank you for your objective post. I believe some of the attack mongers are confused to my main issue which is not to accuse all unincorporated fundy independent separatist of spiritual abuse, far from it! I only accuse the one church I was affiliated with of that, and that just happened to be their position on things.
I feel these people (at this ONE church) are giving Baptists a negative connotation.
My other reason for starting this thread was to have people realize the problem of spiritual abuse which was more articulately addressed by the other thread, entitled spiritual abuse.
If people feel threatened by me, I can only ask WHY?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And I have a question for you. Was it before or after you read these books on spiritual abuse,that you realized that you were being abused?
Paula
P
Pioneer
Guest
There are multitudes of "Christians" that refuse to submit to any type of spiritual authority. That is why there are so many church hoppers these days and they are the first ones to cry "wolf" when their feelings get hurt.
The term "spiritual abuse" is such a subjective word that it means absolutely nothing. Yes, there are pastors and churches that have become mean-spirited but to call that "spiritual abuse" is idiotic.
A "real" Baptist church is defined by the scriptures, not by you or anyone else.
Your refusal to give actual names and places is equivalent to character assassination by gossip. I think you are afraid of the truth.
[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: Pioneer ]
The term "spiritual abuse" is such a subjective word that it means absolutely nothing. Yes, there are pastors and churches that have become mean-spirited but to call that "spiritual abuse" is idiotic.
A "real" Baptist church is defined by the scriptures, not by you or anyone else.
Your refusal to give actual names and places is equivalent to character assassination by gossip. I think you are afraid of the truth.
[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: Pioneer ]
livin'intheword
New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Pioneer and livingintheword, you are demonstrating both your ignorance and arrogance. Just because you've never experienced it doesn't mean it isn't real. You have NO place judging that of which you know nothing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First and foremost I would like to except your apology. Secondly I would like to ask you to define "assume." My point was this, free2know has talked about spiritual abuse, stateing many books that go more in depth than s/he was willing to go. S/he felt concerned that s/he had been abused, but then refused to protect other brothers and sisters from the same pain s/he had felt. For all we know someone on this board could be attending the very same church. I never stated that it wasn't real my dear.
Thanks a bunch
Paula
First and foremost I would like to except your apology. Secondly I would like to ask you to define "assume." My point was this, free2know has talked about spiritual abuse, stateing many books that go more in depth than s/he was willing to go. S/he felt concerned that s/he had been abused, but then refused to protect other brothers and sisters from the same pain s/he had felt. For all we know someone on this board could be attending the very same church. I never stated that it wasn't real my dear.
Thanks a bunch
Paula
If I misunderstood I certainly apologize. However, the tone of both your post and Pioneer's seemed to be quite caustic and more than a little skeptical.
I will also admit that this is a subject about which I feel passionately because of my personal experience. I have more than a little trouble tolerating people who defend the types of churches that foster an abusive environment -- the depths of my feelings could have caused me to over-react because it happens SO much. I've been seeing it for over 17 years. It's consistent and I get VERY tired of people's insistence on defending the system.
The attitude that I FEEL like I'm hearing here is the same that I have been beating my head against for years. It's the same attitude that is protecting my brother's (and a whole bunch of other boys) molester because there's no "proof" -- so the man gets away with the fact that he is still molesting little boys. It's the same attitude that protected the president of my college for over 20 years in spite of constant and gross immorality. And even though I knew the man hadn't changed because he never repented in the first place (despite the crocodile tears) I was scoffed at and reprimanded for my "judgmental" attitude. And even though I was eventually proven right, that man's fans STILL defend him. I find that intolerable.
You can't just speak out against these people in a public forum. If I personally know anyone who is thinking about associating with the people about whom I have personal experience I definitely and PRIVATELY speak out. I won't say anything to people whom I know have their minds already made up. There's nothing I can say that will make any difference. AND there are legal issue involved in making public statements about an issue such as abuse when it's as "vague" as spiritual abuse. It's not like anybody is wearing purple bruises that can be photographed. How do you "prove" that a certain well-known leader had a lewd conversation about you in your hearing? If I said such a thing about XYZ preacher whom you loved and respected would you believe me -- someone you've never met? Not only would you not believe me, your response would look an awful lot like the posts I've read here from you and Pioneer.
Addressing the question about whether identification occurred after reading a book, of course I cannot answer for someone else. However, I can give you a personal example. I was molested when I was 5 years old. I always had these memories that I tried to ignore, but I didn't understand them. It wasn't until I was 27 and heard, then read, information about molestation that I finally realized that my experiences had a label. My memories predate BY FAR my knowledge of the label used to describe them. Does that make my molestation less real? I certainly hope you wouldn't say yes. My memories weren't buried or submerged and suddenly appeared after exposure to information about molestation. Those memories were always there. I could always describe EXACTLY what happened to me. I just didn't know what it was called.
I have previously seen people criticize and minimize claims of abuse if there is any mention of having read a book, going to a counselor or watching a program about abuse. I know there are some people who will use info to manufacture false memories after the fact. But it is MORE THAN A LITTLE INSULTING and piles pain on top of great pain for people to minimize what I know I've experienced just because they THINK they know better than me what my life has been like. There's no realistic excuse for someone else to criticize or question or denigrate my personal experiences.
The reason that I feel strongly about this is because it is UNBELIEVABLY common in the church. Christians, who should be our loving brothers and supportive of us in our hurt, are OFTEN the very ones sticking the knife in our backs with their judgment. Do you have any idea how much hurt I have experienced because Christian "brothers" refused to believe that my meek and mild Christian husband could possibly be abusive in the privacy of our own home? I walked through 14 years of abuse and nearly lost my children and got only a very tiny dab of support from the church -- the ones I should have been able to turn to in my pain. But I had to walk alone through it all. As it happened, it made me stronger. But it shouldn't have to be that way. And it is the very reason why I want to reach out to others who are not getting any support from their churches either.
I really think there's far less likelihood of me helping someone who has "manufactured" abuse memories than helping someone who really has been mistreated. The same is true of the church. Why do we ASSUME that claims of abuse are wrong instead of giving the benefit of the doubt? What earthly thing is gained by that? You know what that does? It further hurts people who are already wounded. I think that's inexcusable.
There are some descriptions of spiritual abuse on the other thread about spiritual abuse. If you can read those descriptions and NOT think they describe literal spiritual abuse then we certainly have no common ground for discussion. If you agree that they do describe true abuse then there's no reason for the disagreement appearing in this thread as far as I can see.
-- Danette
I will also admit that this is a subject about which I feel passionately because of my personal experience. I have more than a little trouble tolerating people who defend the types of churches that foster an abusive environment -- the depths of my feelings could have caused me to over-react because it happens SO much. I've been seeing it for over 17 years. It's consistent and I get VERY tired of people's insistence on defending the system.
The attitude that I FEEL like I'm hearing here is the same that I have been beating my head against for years. It's the same attitude that is protecting my brother's (and a whole bunch of other boys) molester because there's no "proof" -- so the man gets away with the fact that he is still molesting little boys. It's the same attitude that protected the president of my college for over 20 years in spite of constant and gross immorality. And even though I knew the man hadn't changed because he never repented in the first place (despite the crocodile tears) I was scoffed at and reprimanded for my "judgmental" attitude. And even though I was eventually proven right, that man's fans STILL defend him. I find that intolerable.
You can't just speak out against these people in a public forum. If I personally know anyone who is thinking about associating with the people about whom I have personal experience I definitely and PRIVATELY speak out. I won't say anything to people whom I know have their minds already made up. There's nothing I can say that will make any difference. AND there are legal issue involved in making public statements about an issue such as abuse when it's as "vague" as spiritual abuse. It's not like anybody is wearing purple bruises that can be photographed. How do you "prove" that a certain well-known leader had a lewd conversation about you in your hearing? If I said such a thing about XYZ preacher whom you loved and respected would you believe me -- someone you've never met? Not only would you not believe me, your response would look an awful lot like the posts I've read here from you and Pioneer.
Addressing the question about whether identification occurred after reading a book, of course I cannot answer for someone else. However, I can give you a personal example. I was molested when I was 5 years old. I always had these memories that I tried to ignore, but I didn't understand them. It wasn't until I was 27 and heard, then read, information about molestation that I finally realized that my experiences had a label. My memories predate BY FAR my knowledge of the label used to describe them. Does that make my molestation less real? I certainly hope you wouldn't say yes. My memories weren't buried or submerged and suddenly appeared after exposure to information about molestation. Those memories were always there. I could always describe EXACTLY what happened to me. I just didn't know what it was called.
I have previously seen people criticize and minimize claims of abuse if there is any mention of having read a book, going to a counselor or watching a program about abuse. I know there are some people who will use info to manufacture false memories after the fact. But it is MORE THAN A LITTLE INSULTING and piles pain on top of great pain for people to minimize what I know I've experienced just because they THINK they know better than me what my life has been like. There's no realistic excuse for someone else to criticize or question or denigrate my personal experiences.
The reason that I feel strongly about this is because it is UNBELIEVABLY common in the church. Christians, who should be our loving brothers and supportive of us in our hurt, are OFTEN the very ones sticking the knife in our backs with their judgment. Do you have any idea how much hurt I have experienced because Christian "brothers" refused to believe that my meek and mild Christian husband could possibly be abusive in the privacy of our own home? I walked through 14 years of abuse and nearly lost my children and got only a very tiny dab of support from the church -- the ones I should have been able to turn to in my pain. But I had to walk alone through it all. As it happened, it made me stronger. But it shouldn't have to be that way. And it is the very reason why I want to reach out to others who are not getting any support from their churches either.
I really think there's far less likelihood of me helping someone who has "manufactured" abuse memories than helping someone who really has been mistreated. The same is true of the church. Why do we ASSUME that claims of abuse are wrong instead of giving the benefit of the doubt? What earthly thing is gained by that? You know what that does? It further hurts people who are already wounded. I think that's inexcusable.
There are some descriptions of spiritual abuse on the other thread about spiritual abuse. If you can read those descriptions and NOT think they describe literal spiritual abuse then we certainly have no common ground for discussion. If you agree that they do describe true abuse then there's no reason for the disagreement appearing in this thread as far as I can see.
-- Danette
FYI folks, I read the books AFTER I left the church.
We stayed for two years after watching the alienation of my son from church,(he now goes to church with us again and likes it) divorced friends get shunned and leave, actally kicked out because they were dating. I saw a homeless person kicked out of this church once, trailer park kids segregated from the faithful's kids, heard racist comments about city kids. I could go on and on and on. If that is how someone wants to define the spirit of Christ and label "Baptist" may God help your poor misguided soul. Getting my feelings hurt and church hopping after 10 years of faithful service, even after being in the higher up hierarchy of the church for years.... you ain't a talkin to a church hopper brother!
I tried discussing this with a friend who attended this church. She's very messed up with an abusive husband she can't leave.And she is also petrified of the Pastor.
The church urges NO CONTACT for the faithful with anyone who leaves this church.Therefore, it is conterproductive for any of you to get into specifics. IF anyone calls me from the church, I will fully explain to THEM my rational decision and I can defend it to THEM.
No one should have to defend themselves to you, either you believe me or you don't. I guess you people always blame the victims,not the perps? Instead of acusing my of hyperbole, examine the phenomona and take a good look around.
I would justlike to add some of you people are sorely lacking in Christian compassion. This is not an inquisition here!!!!!! Jesus never treated people like this, aren't you to pattern your life after Christ? And by the way, he did rebuke the Pharisees when they needed it
Step outside your little boxes and take in the big picture.
We stayed for two years after watching the alienation of my son from church,(he now goes to church with us again and likes it) divorced friends get shunned and leave, actally kicked out because they were dating. I saw a homeless person kicked out of this church once, trailer park kids segregated from the faithful's kids, heard racist comments about city kids. I could go on and on and on. If that is how someone wants to define the spirit of Christ and label "Baptist" may God help your poor misguided soul. Getting my feelings hurt and church hopping after 10 years of faithful service, even after being in the higher up hierarchy of the church for years.... you ain't a talkin to a church hopper brother!
I tried discussing this with a friend who attended this church. She's very messed up with an abusive husband she can't leave.And she is also petrified of the Pastor.
The church urges NO CONTACT for the faithful with anyone who leaves this church.Therefore, it is conterproductive for any of you to get into specifics. IF anyone calls me from the church, I will fully explain to THEM my rational decision and I can defend it to THEM.
No one should have to defend themselves to you, either you believe me or you don't. I guess you people always blame the victims,not the perps? Instead of acusing my of hyperbole, examine the phenomona and take a good look around.
I would justlike to add some of you people are sorely lacking in Christian compassion. This is not an inquisition here!!!!!! Jesus never treated people like this, aren't you to pattern your life after Christ? And by the way, he did rebuke the Pharisees when they needed it
Danette,
Thank you for understanding. I do not always put things in an understandable context like you do. I have to say I am disheartened by the vicious attacks here on my character from other Christian people. It seems clear to me they just don't understand the profound and lasting effects on a person and/or their families. I have many personal stuggles I am now in retrospect glad I did not divulge, these people would have me torn to shreds in no time. You are a bright light and a good person. Sadly, I guess my original intention of warning people about this type of church was made in vain. If it helps someone though, I guess it was worth all those vicious personal attacks.
I am hoping some of these folks re-read the board rules and adhere to them. Especially the respecting part. I wonder if they read this was my first post and please be patient? Even after my experiences, I will still be respectful to them, I won't lower myself to their meanspirited level.
Thank you for understanding. I do not always put things in an understandable context like you do. I have to say I am disheartened by the vicious attacks here on my character from other Christian people. It seems clear to me they just don't understand the profound and lasting effects on a person and/or their families. I have many personal stuggles I am now in retrospect glad I did not divulge, these people would have me torn to shreds in no time. You are a bright light and a good person. Sadly, I guess my original intention of warning people about this type of church was made in vain. If it helps someone though, I guess it was worth all those vicious personal attacks.
I am hoping some of these folks re-read the board rules and adhere to them. Especially the respecting part. I wonder if they read this was my first post and please be patient? Even after my experiences, I will still be respectful to them, I won't lower myself to their meanspirited level.
"Your refusal to give actual names and places is equivalent to character assassination by gossip. I think you are afraid of the truth."
Say what??????? How can I assassinate the character of someone I did NOT name? as for me being afraid of the truth, back at you!
Jesus knows the truth and the truth has set me free! In the end I answer to him, not the old pastor, the old church or to you dear friend!
Say what??????? How can I assassinate the character of someone I did NOT name? as for me being afraid of the truth, back at you!
Jesus knows the truth and the truth has set me free! In the end I answer to him, not the old pastor, the old church or to you dear friend!
Pioneer, Living in the Word, please see my post in the "Spiritual Abuse" thread. Perhaps you'll get a glimmer of what Free is talking about. It's not the same church Free attended, but it's the same kind of pastor.
Spiritual abuse is apparently Free's word for someone who uses the Bible to thump you soundly about the head and ears because you don't conform to THEIR way of thinking.
Examples: The pastor I described in the other thread once cornered a 16 year old boy and severely questioned his salvation because the boy had dyed the top of his hair blond. I may not agree with what the kid did, but I think his parents need to address it, and I certainly do NOT think it had anything to do with his salvation. In fact, this same 16 year old kid used to go down to the "slum" area of town and play basketball with the less fortunate kids; in between games, he's read gospel tracts to them.
This same pastor praised another man in the church for not letting a kid on the bus because the boy would not remove his earring. In other words, it was a-okay for that boy not to hear the Word of God simply because he was wearing an earring....
This same pastor publicly pronounced from the pulpit that the women of this church would only wear dresses, and that if they didn't, well, they needed to get right with God. This same pastor's wife and daughters regularly wore shorts outside of church.
This same pastor also preached more than once about the sins of wearing revealing clothing; but his daughter and daughter-in-law regularly wore sleeveless dresses that gave us "free shots."
This same pastor told the women of the church that if they had small children, they needed to be home with those small children and not out in the work force. His own wife still had one who wasn't in school yet, but they shipped him off to a babysitter each day so she could go work to help pay the bills.
This same pastor preached the evils of television regularly; but God help you if you got in the way of his basketball game or John Wayne movie on TBS.
Finally, this pastor loved to condemn the other churches in our town. He especially loves to condemn the church I'm currently attending, saying it was unbiblically founded (because it was founded by ex-members of his congregation). This same pastor also has a history of leaving churches where he was the assistant pastor and starting churches of his own--without authorization or even telling the pastor he was under.
That, Pioneer and Living in the Word, is what Free is talking about with "spiritual abuse." It's hypocrisy, being double-minded, and basically teaching legalism instead of teaching Christ. It's saying "this is MY church, I'm the pastor, and you'll do what I say" instead of saying "this is GOD'S church, and you'll do what He says."
Because I'm in the military, I've been moved around a lot. I've experienced several different types of pastors and churches, and I have to say (thank the Lord) that this type of pastor is NOT the norm. But I also thank God that I did come across this kind of pastor, because it taught me a LOT about myself and about my walk with God.
Free, I encourage you to look up other independent fundamental Baptist churches. You may be happy with where you are, but please take the lessons you learned from your past church and apply them here as well.
Spiritual abuse is apparently Free's word for someone who uses the Bible to thump you soundly about the head and ears because you don't conform to THEIR way of thinking.
Examples: The pastor I described in the other thread once cornered a 16 year old boy and severely questioned his salvation because the boy had dyed the top of his hair blond. I may not agree with what the kid did, but I think his parents need to address it, and I certainly do NOT think it had anything to do with his salvation. In fact, this same 16 year old kid used to go down to the "slum" area of town and play basketball with the less fortunate kids; in between games, he's read gospel tracts to them.
This same pastor praised another man in the church for not letting a kid on the bus because the boy would not remove his earring. In other words, it was a-okay for that boy not to hear the Word of God simply because he was wearing an earring....
This same pastor publicly pronounced from the pulpit that the women of this church would only wear dresses, and that if they didn't, well, they needed to get right with God. This same pastor's wife and daughters regularly wore shorts outside of church.
This same pastor also preached more than once about the sins of wearing revealing clothing; but his daughter and daughter-in-law regularly wore sleeveless dresses that gave us "free shots."
This same pastor told the women of the church that if they had small children, they needed to be home with those small children and not out in the work force. His own wife still had one who wasn't in school yet, but they shipped him off to a babysitter each day so she could go work to help pay the bills.
This same pastor preached the evils of television regularly; but God help you if you got in the way of his basketball game or John Wayne movie on TBS.
Finally, this pastor loved to condemn the other churches in our town. He especially loves to condemn the church I'm currently attending, saying it was unbiblically founded (because it was founded by ex-members of his congregation). This same pastor also has a history of leaving churches where he was the assistant pastor and starting churches of his own--without authorization or even telling the pastor he was under.
That, Pioneer and Living in the Word, is what Free is talking about with "spiritual abuse." It's hypocrisy, being double-minded, and basically teaching legalism instead of teaching Christ. It's saying "this is MY church, I'm the pastor, and you'll do what I say" instead of saying "this is GOD'S church, and you'll do what He says."
Because I'm in the military, I've been moved around a lot. I've experienced several different types of pastors and churches, and I have to say (thank the Lord) that this type of pastor is NOT the norm. But I also thank God that I did come across this kind of pastor, because it taught me a LOT about myself and about my walk with God.
Free, I encourage you to look up other independent fundamental Baptist churches. You may be happy with where you are, but please take the lessons you learned from your past church and apply them here as well.
Free At Last,
Could you email me at genjulie@yahoo.com
I sympathize with your experiences in an abusive church and would like to direct you to a link that will help. I tried to email you but was denied access to your email address.
genjulie
Could you email me at genjulie@yahoo.com
I sympathize with your experiences in an abusive church and would like to direct you to a link that will help. I tried to email you but was denied access to your email address.
genjulie
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Danette:
OOPS! It was just brought to my attention that previously on the board mention was made that I knew Dr. Bob Griffin back in my college days, which are in this thread referred to in an extremely negative light. Just to clarify, yes it was the same college but NO Dr. Griffin was not a part of the garbage. In fact, if asked I believe he will verify my assessment of the place. His wife was once a great encouragement to me when I was trying to deal with severe, demonic, daily, nightmares I was having because of the environment. Dr. Griffin was there near the end of my stay and didn't stay all that long. I left before him so I don't know exactly what his reason for leaving was, but I do know he is VERY MUCH not a fan of that system.
-- Danette<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You are correct in that assessment, Danette. We were there trying to make it "liveable" and inculcate truth instead of tradition into the doctrine and rules.
It was a nightmare, folks. I was never more happy to be freed from that abusive legalism and absurd olio of "rules" for making one spiritual. My wife, the most godly and christlike person I have ever known, actually suffered a breakdown physically (her health was the cause of our leaving) trying to "be all" and "do all".
Danette, it DID get better for a few years. More sanity prevailed. But then the ultimate leadership took back control and, well, the rest is history.
NOTICE TO ALL - I did not mention names of the college, church, and people involved. If you think I am a liar about this since I will not satisfy your purient curiosity with details, then live with that judgment. I simply verify Danette's testimony in spades! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Law made lousy Jews and even worse Christians.
--Dr. Bob Griffin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OOPS! It was just brought to my attention that previously on the board mention was made that I knew Dr. Bob Griffin back in my college days, which are in this thread referred to in an extremely negative light. Just to clarify, yes it was the same college but NO Dr. Griffin was not a part of the garbage. In fact, if asked I believe he will verify my assessment of the place. His wife was once a great encouragement to me when I was trying to deal with severe, demonic, daily, nightmares I was having because of the environment. Dr. Griffin was there near the end of my stay and didn't stay all that long. I left before him so I don't know exactly what his reason for leaving was, but I do know he is VERY MUCH not a fan of that system.
-- Danette<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You are correct in that assessment, Danette. We were there trying to make it "liveable" and inculcate truth instead of tradition into the doctrine and rules.
It was a nightmare, folks. I was never more happy to be freed from that abusive legalism and absurd olio of "rules" for making one spiritual. My wife, the most godly and christlike person I have ever known, actually suffered a breakdown physically (her health was the cause of our leaving) trying to "be all" and "do all".
Danette, it DID get better for a few years. More sanity prevailed. But then the ultimate leadership took back control and, well, the rest is history.
NOTICE TO ALL - I did not mention names of the college, church, and people involved. If you think I am a liar about this since I will not satisfy your purient curiosity with details, then live with that judgment. I simply verify Danette's testimony in spades! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Law made lousy Jews and even worse Christians.
--Dr. Bob Griffin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The college is now defunct so it is no danger to anyone else. Various individuals and associates are still above ground and breathing, but the college went under when it was exposed that the "degrees" they were offering were illegal and if they didn't go under we all could have sued the daylights out of them for all the tuition we had paid (although that wasn't the official reason for closing the doors, of course. There was an appropriate whitewash. And yes, I'm prejudiced and believe they lied about the reason for shutting it down.
)
-- Danette
-- Danette
I did email Don some particulars. There was so much good and potential as we worked hard to make classes and grading "credible". I was the Dean as well as a prof and had a good relationship with the students there. They were "cream of the crop" (although some years I swear we had crop failure)
!
I still have cyber-contact with 25 or so who were there during my 5 years and am pleased with what God did with them IN SPITE of a really poor situation.
Glitz and gloss whitewashed outside, while the putrifying dead-men's-bones rotted away within . . .
I still have cyber-contact with 25 or so who were there during my 5 years and am pleased with what God did with them IN SPITE of a really poor situation.
Glitz and gloss whitewashed outside, while the putrifying dead-men's-bones rotted away within . . .