Works ARE Neccessary for Salvation

I believe that works ARE neccesary for salvation, but works of the kind that stem from the nature that faith IS, inherently, in EVERY Scriptural instance, tied to something you DO. It is not law-works or conscience-works, but faith-works.

When we Christians read the word "works" in Paul's letters, we read it to say "all works of any sort at any point whatsover, period."

But in context, Paul did not mean that. He was meaning, foremost, law-works undertaken to merit right-standing with God apart from grace through faith. He secondarily meant "conscience-works" undertaken by Gentiles. None of those works will merit right-standing with God.

But the works that are utterly inseparable from "believing" and "faith"--faith-works--are categorically non-optionals if we would inherit eternal salvation.

Think of the Biblical characters:

Noah - "BUILD NOW an Ark"

Abraham - "LEAVE [Ur]"; "GO TO the land"; "HAVE children;" "TAKE now Isaac...TO"

Moses - "GO NOW TO;" TAKE NOW the Blood; etc.

Joshua - MARCH AROUND the walls

General: "REPENT and believe the gospel."

"TAKE UP you cross and FOLLOW Me."

"Whoever LOSES his life for My sake will keep it."

The sheep and the goats: the difference between them?: What they did and didn't DO.

All those CAPITALIZED WORDS above are VERBS, something you DO--in short, faith-works. Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ, and that word, EVERY TIME in Scripture is a telling of one TO DO something.

It can even be viewed very simply: "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."

"Believe" is A CONTINUOUS VERB, not a noun, not a one-time event. And a verb is action, movement, something you DO.

It is often asked, "What about the thief on the cross? What did he DO?"

Reply: How do we even know about the thief on the cross? What things of the thief does Luke record for us? We know about the thief at all because of what he DID. Luke records the thieve's DEEDS.

Faith is not to have and to hold. Faith is unto being and going and doing.

Neitzche declared that "God is dead." I pray for the time where Faith without works IS indeed dead. I wonder if the ills from the latter are worse than from the former.

[ March 06, 2002, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

But the crux of the argument is what actually saved you.

Christ's death on the cross, or you believing?

You believe in Jesus Christ death and resurrection because you already are saved not to get saved! See Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-13! The way I interpret it God does all the work. Man is passive in the matter of eternal salvation. The scriptures declare the same!... Brother Glen

[ March 06, 2002, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

Think of the Biblical characters:--

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Might make a bit more sense to call these examples, not works, but obedience!
While they are technically works, they stem from the desire to obey God as opposed to trying to earn merit; Big difference I think!!

"HEB 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family.----"

"HEB 11:17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice.--"

"HEB 11:28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood,---"

"HEB 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.--"

Of course in this chapter, there are many more examples, but in each of these cases, the "works" were the result of command from God, not just an attempt at earning "eternal favor"!

To me this shows that works are a result of salvation, not the cause of it!

[ March 06, 2002, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: just-want-peace ]

Works are not necessary for salvation! Just like someone has already stated, you should say "obedience" not "works." All the children of God will desire to obey Him, but that in know way saves them.

I think the issues being raised are answered in simply seperating pre-regenrative works from post regenerative works. The former ain't gonna do a thing for ya. The latter are inseperable from faith. That is why I prefer to call them faith-works, which makes no sharp distinction.

[ March 06, 2002, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

Exactly; it blurs the line, and therefore muddies the issue of what's doing the saving.

The idea of works salvation denies God's grace. God's grace is unmerited, salvation unmerited. Where there is works there can be no grace, there can be no salvation.

See my post at http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000625 which dispells the false teaching that works are necessary for salvation.

See my reply to the same.

Jonah found himself tangled in seaweed and drowning. Then a fish swallows him and he survives for 3 days. There he finally comes to the great theological truth:

Salvation is of the Lord

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The minute we add works, we have denied grace.

So why did I repent and why did I believe and why did I call on the name of the Lord?

All of these "works" were after the fact that GOD already had worked in me. Salvation is of the Lord, not Bob.

I don't have a problem with the source of faith-works being God. They MUST be, else they are not faith-works, but law-works!

I think going to the Time to Mature in Our Soteriology discussion might be the better place to continue this:

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000625#000002

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Yep. Sad what they and those like them did/do.

Of course, that passage has nothing to with what I am trying to get across. You appearently are not understanding what I am saying.

We tend to think Paul's conception "works" was that works are works are works are works--any and all works, period, no ifs and or buts about it. We tend to think that, to him, all works, irrespective of anything at all, are lumped into one. Is that what Paul really meant? Of course not. Even above he said the works are of the type where people go about trying to "establish their own righteousness."

Everything about the whole context of the word "works" in Paul's use of it screams a certain TYPE of works, specifically, law-works, and secondarily, conscience-works and by-nature-works. Otherwise, perhaps Luther was right and we need to take James from the cannon???

JAS 2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his works were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.... 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.

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Now, did James have the works are works are works are works conception of works in mind when he used "works"? Just like with the case of Paul, of course not.

Everything about the whole context of the word "works" in James' use of it screams a certain TYPE of works, specifically, faith-works. Otherwise, perhaps we need to remove Paul's letters from the cannon.

A certain type of works ARE NOT necessary for salvation, and indeed, are antithical and inimical to it. Paul said so. EQUALLY, another type of works ARE necessary for salvation, and indeed, are integral and essential to it. James said so.

I submit that erroneous notions of soteriology arise when we fail to make this distinction, and instead lump all "works" into one.

I'd prefer not to deal with this thread anymore but the similar one as mentioned above.

[ March 09, 2002, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

I and others are puzzled by the silence over the issue here and wonder if it is only that what I am saying cannot be countered. Such wonderment is, of course, only natural.

[ March 09, 2002, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

Greetings,
This reply is intended for a comment made by "Tyndale*.
Tyndale writes: "Man is passive in the matter of eternal salvation."

I comment: Sir, I being a full 5 point Calvinist must assert that this idea is a erroneous. I grant you, salvation is solely of the Lord, by His good will and wisdom, by His grace alone. But......man has a direct responsibility in this issue. J.I. Packer calls it an *antinomy*. Man is an active participant in the salvific processes. God does grant repentance; hence man must though, repent on his own. He cannot though (man), outside of Gods grace repent, yet he must, he is commanded to. Also, men are called to turn from sin, yet without God, they are unable. Men are called to believe the gospel, yet none can unless God allows.

In HIS grip,
Scott Bushey

Good comment.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Scott you being a Calvinist seem to have overlooked the doctrine of Total Depravity... Tell me how dead is this individual in question? We also discussed this in the Calvinism/Armenium board and my bible tells me he's(pardon the pun)dead as a doornail. How can a dead man repent? He can repent after he is given life, but does he repent to get eternal life or because he already has it? Sound doctrine declares all through the scriptures that a far as eternal salvation is concerned man is passive... The work is all of God... Brother Glen

[ March 09, 2002, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

My friend,
This is not an issue of *total depravity*. Any theologian knows that man outside of Gods grace is depraved with no hope of salvation. It is a basic principle to understand that because of Gods grace, man can and will respond. But this in fact does not discount the fact that man must respond to the call, that he must repent and that he must believe. *He* (man)must do all these things. As I said earlier, God allows repentance and man repents, God allows for response to the Gospel call and man responds, God allows for belief and man believes. Yet the lines in scripture, in regards to Gods devine election and mans responsibility do meet. Spurgeon said it best, "They are two friends (election and mans responsibility) that do not need reconciling".


In HIM,
Scott Bushey

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Sound doctrine declares all through the scriptures that a far as eternal salvation is concerned man is passive... The work is all of God...

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Salvation being OF God is one thing. Excluding man's part in RESPONDING TO THAT is quite another.

PH 2:12 - Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only in my presence but much more because I am absent, work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling.... 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

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The above shows man's part: "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." And it shows God's part: "for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do for His good pleasure." This gets across the same:

1 CO 6:1 - And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain.

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To accept your notion--that there is God's part, but man has no part--we would have to say that all man's actions are determined and he has no free-will. Or else man has a psuedo free-will of the type where man just thinks he has free-will, and since this is so, the Bible writes as if he has free-will, but that through it all, God is really mandating all of man's actions, period, as if strapped upon an anvil. In other words, that determinsm is true.

COL 2:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel

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To accept your notion, the above highlighted portion, "If ye continue in the faith," would have to read "since you will indeed continue in the faith." It neither says that, nor implies it. You have the same problem here:

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

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If man had no part, the above would have to say, "For we are made partakers of Christ, and we will indeed hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end." As before, it neither says that, nor implies it.

God will do His part, no one questions that. But man MUST do his part in responding to God's promptings, if he is to receive introduction into grace, continue on in salvation's process, and inherit eternal salvation in the end. Those responses of man to God's workings are, in short, "faith-works." If one does not do them, the same has "neglected so great a salvation," and therefore has "only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire" awaiting them. Is this as "easy" doctrine or popular doctrine? No. Is it sound? Yes. Because as it has said all along, "faith without works is dead."

[ March 10, 2002, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: LP ]