resurrection and the rapture

I agree with you Bro. Ray. Jesus the Bridegroom is not going to have the Bride to Be beaten up by the Tribulation and the Wrath of God upon this earth! The Tribulation is for the unbelieving world and Judgment! And for dealing with the Nation of Israel, too. Not for the Bride to go through.

If the Bride arrives at the Marriage Supper, appearing Glorious without spot or wrinkle, well, how could that be if she was beaten up in the Tribulation and Woe of Woes?

What earthly groom puts his bride through torment? Jesus the Groom died for the Bride's torment. With His stripes, the Bride was healed! PTL!

...and I'm a listening for that sweet trumpet sound! Lift up your Heads, Church, Your Redemption Draweth Nigh!

[ May 13, 2002, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: EagleLives911 ]

 

Some people have been wrongly taught and have come to believe that the ‘first resurrection' is when you are saved by Christ.

One would hope that the Apostle John was saved before he wrote the concluding book of the Bible, Revelation. I am sure he was . . . . In Revelation 20:6 John says, ‘Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection . . . ' This resurrection speaks more to the physical resurrection of our bodies than to the spiritual nature of this future event. Both, however, are strongly explained in these passages. [I Thess. 4:13-18; I Corinthians 15:51-58] The first resurrection is the rapture of the church, just before the unprecedented and unparalleled Great Tribulation that is coming on the earth. I believe we are quickly moving toward this unspeakable Great Tribulation era. Other saints, like the martyrs of the Great Tribulation period are also included as ‘first resurrection' people of God. [Rev. 20:4&5] Any saved persons from the time of Adam until the trumpet sounds are included in this most glorious future event called the ‘first resurrection.' I Corinthians 15:20 indicates that Christ will be ‘the first-fruits' of all the people of God who have died in faith. To quote it exactly--‘But now is Christ risen from the dead and has become the first-fruits of those who slept/death.'

Clearly, Christ never had to get saved so this ‘first resurrection' could not refer in any way to Him receiving resurrected spiritual life. He was and remains the sinless Son of God, the second Person of the Holy Trinity. God's Word does refer to Christ {the first-fruits} being resurrected from the tomb [I Cor. 15:20]; our bodily resurrections have been held in abeyance until this church age has sovereignly been ended by our blessed Savior. [I Thess. 4:13-18 & I Cor. 15:51-58]

The ‘second death' is referred to in Revelation 20:6 and is defined in Revelation 20:14. The 'second death' will be experienced by all people who do not find, choose or love Christ during their lifetime. The meaning of the ‘second death' is this. ‘Death and hell will be cast into the Lake of fire.' This is the 'second death.'

 

Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 15:1).

The vials contain God's wrath (Revelation 16), yet not one of them is directed at Christians. I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

Note that no scripture promises that He will appear for us before the Great Tribulation.

Paul said we're to wait for and remain obedient until the appearing (epiphaneia) of the Lord (Titus 2:13, 2 Timothy 4:8, 1 Timothy 6:14), and that this same appearing or brightness (epiphaneia) must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). There's no 3rd appearing (epiphaneia) of Jesus.

Paul and Peter said we're to wait with patience and obedience for the appearing (apokalupsis) or coming (apokalupsis) or revelation (apokalupsis) of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7, 1:13, 4:13), when he will appear or be revealed (apokalupsis) in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8). There's no 3rd appearing (apokalupsis) of Jesus.

The Apostles promised that when Jesus appears (phaneroo) we shall be like him (1 John 3:2, Colossians 3:4, 1 Peter 5:4), for we shall see (optanomai) him as he is (1 John 3:2). And Jesus said he will not shine (phaino) or appear (phaino) or be seen (optanomai) until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:27-31). There's no 3rd appearing or seeing (optanomai) of Jesus (Hebrews 9:28, Revelation 1:7).

Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time.

Some say the 24 elders have to be the church because at one time they sing a song which says "thou hast redeemed US" (Revelation 5:9). But note that at that time the 24 elders are holding "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Revelation 5:8); I believe they are angelic rulers who, with the 4 beasts, offer up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). Compare Revelation 8:4: "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

Do some believe that the 4 beasts must also be the church because they also offer up the song of the redeemed to God? (Revelation 5:8-9)

Note that angels can also be described as having bodies and wearing white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12), so the description of the 24 elders doesn't require they be men.

They may be the same rank of angel that Paul calls "thrones" (Colossians 1:16).

Note that even the locusts can wear victory crowns (in Greek "stephanos," Revelation 9:7), and the devil himself wears 7 crowns (in Greek "diadema," Revelation 12:3), so I believe the ruling angels in heaven wear crowns, for they are princes (Daniel 10:13, 12:1) and they too have their victories (for example, Revelation 12:7-9).

When did the elders get their crowns in the pre-trib view? Not until the rapture but before the 1st seal of the tribulation? How long does the judgment last? That is, how long before the tribulation must the rapture come in order that the judgment might be completed before the tribulation begins? And why does it say that the time to reward the saints doesn't come until after the 7th trumpet has sounded? (Revelation 11:15, 18)

If the 24 elders included the Apostles and great OT saints, why didn't John recognize any of them, not even himself among them, when he even knew that it was Moses and Elijah who appeared at the transfiguration? (Mark 9:2-4)

Didn't the bride of Christ go through the days of persecution and martyrdom under the Roman emperors? How will the tribulation under the Antichrist be any different? Has any such suffering and death ever really harmed the bride? "Some of you shall they cause to be put to death... But there shall not an hair of your head perish" (Luke 21:16, 18).

How could we Christians who will be in the tribulation who have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) be unbelievers?

Are the great multitude of us Christians in the tribulation "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Revelation 7:9, 14) all Israel?

Some believe the tribulation may be for some Christians, but not for the bride of Christ. But there are no Christians outside of the bride, for all believers form a single body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32).

If the 24 elders are the church, why aren't they at the marriage, or the supper that many say lasts the entire 7 years? Do they miss the entire marriage and supper? For we see them repeatedly throughout the tribulation chapters (Revelation 7:11, 11:16, 14:3) and never is there any reference to either the marriage or the supper.

Note that the Bible shows neither the judgment nor the marriage of the church nor the marriage supper as happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.

The marriage and supper are not announced until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14).

"The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10).

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:17, Isaiah 25:5-9).

I believe all of the following passages speak of the same coming and the same gathering together: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52. I don't believe the scriptures teach more than one 2nd coming, more than one gathering together of the church, or more than one last trump.

I believe the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture would require that the 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28) be a 3rd coming, that the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52) be the 9th from last (Revelation 8:6), and that the 1st resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) be the 2nd, so that it would not really make sense of scripture.

Is there a verse which refers to "the church age" and says it ends before the tribulation? Isn't the church forever? "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Ephesians 3:21).

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

Postrib: I believe you are correct on the timing. I have never found any scripture that would lead me to believe differently. Eagle911, your argument is one that is not scriptural based but rather based on what you think Jesus would do in a given situation. Using the same guidelines, I think he will not prevent Christians from suffering the trib just as he does not keep burn victims from the most horrific pain a human body can go through why would he make an exception on this occasio?. Millions of people have endured this type of burn pain. So your argument can’t hold up.

 

Ah, post-it, we meet again on the subject of end times....

Your points are well taken. In fact, Christian martyrdom is going on even today as we speak throughout the world. Most comfortable Christians in America do not realize it and/or are not concerned.

http://www.persecution.com/country/index.cfm

There is an index on this site country by country.

And so here we are pre-trib vs post-trib once again.

What is overlooked by post-trib is that there will be people saved during the Great Tribulation. And Solomon's temple will be built for a third time on the Dome of the Rock/Temple Mount. Then Jesus, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, will return for the Second Coming and will sit on the throne and rule with a fist of iron for 1000 years!

I am not eloquent as hrhema in explaining all of this, so perhaps he will see this and join us in this lively discussion!

If one believes in the dispensations, as I do, then it all fits together nicely according to Scripture...the 70 weeks of Daniel, etc.

However, if one believes as you do, post-it, that the end times could be thousands of years away, then it will not make sense. And the signs of the end-times going on even now, will not be signs to you.

According to Scripture, the trump will sound and my dad, (who preached the unadulterated Word of God for over 50 years), whose body is laying over there in the cemetery will be resurrected first, and if I am among those who are alive at the time, I shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, my corruptible body will become incorruptible, and I will rise to meet Him in the air! My Savior, My Redeemer, the One Whose spike scarred hands saved me from utter destruction. Hallelujah!

Our choir is working on the old song, Meeting in the Air, to be sung for Sunday before Memorial Day! So, my IFB church is also pre-trib, dispensational, and in fact, my pastor recently taught from a Larkin dispensation chart (I drew on large oil cloth for my dad about 25 years ago).

Here is the one section of the Larkin chart if you care to look:

http://members.citynet.net/morton/images/lcoming.gif

The tribulation could start at any moment, at the very second the elect are snatched away. Perhaps at the moment the first nuke is launched (certainly the description of nuclear destruction is described in Rev).

But the Bride will be spared the Wrath of God to come during the Woe of Woes. That is not to say there won't be suffering and martyrdom leading up to the Great Tribulation as it going on now, before it is fully here! There may be a time of suffering leading up to it even for us in America.

But it is not Judgment for the Bride. By His stripes we are healed. Judgment for the Bride was paid at Calvary. That is all I want to say for now as this reply is long enough.

hrhema, are you lurking?

 

EagleLives911,

You have to be proud of your father who preached over fifty years; that was quite an accomplishment. We'll all meet in the future, thanks be to God.

 

Excellent response, EagleLives! And while my eyes have to keep an eye on things here, my heart does indeed keep looking up.

 

While the Bible shows Christians in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), note that it doesn't expressly show anyone repenting during the tribulation. In fact, it repeatedly says the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and Paul says that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation were saved before the tribulation began, for nowhere does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

Lest any unbelievers get complacent and think "Oh, when I see all that Antichrist stuff then I'll repent and believe," I think we should warn them: "Then it may be too late; God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."

Some say the tribulation isn't for the church, but for Israel only. But how do they define "Israel" and how do they define "the church?" When they say "Israel," are they referring to only "Israel after the flesh" (1 Corinthians 10:18), that is, to only those physically descended from Jacob? If so, are the great multitude of us Christians in the tribulation "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Revelation 7:9, 14) all "Israel after the flesh?"

And when they say "the church," are they referring to only Gentile Christians? Are they saying Jewish Christians aren't part of the church?

True, Biblical dispensationalism does not divide, but unites: "In the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). "Ye have heard of the dispensation... That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body" (Ephesians 3:2, 6). Fellowheirs with who? Of the same body as who?

Who are the two parties Paul refers to when he says: "Hath made both one... to make in himself of twain one new man?" (Ephesians 2:14-15)

"Ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel... ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints" (Ephesians 2:12, 19).

I believe that we are still in the first 69 of the "70 weeks" of Daniel 9:24-27, that the 70th "week" will be the year after Jesus' 2nd coming, and that the 70 "weeks" will be complete when Daniel 9:24, and passages such as Isaiah 4:3-4, Zechariah 14:19-21, and Isaiah 62:6-7, are complete in physical Jerusalem and physical Israel.

In the Hebrew, "week" is "shabuwa" (Strong's #7620); Strong's Hebrew Dictionary defines it literally as "sevened," and says it is based on the Hebrew word "shaba" (Strong's #7650), which it defines as "a prim. root; prop. to be complete," so that the word "week" may possibly represent "completion," which may refer in a sealed manner to the completion of time we call a year.

Note again that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 15:1).

The vials contain God's wrath (Revelation 16), yet not one of them is directed at Christians. I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

In the Rapture our Lord Jesus gathers His Bride, in whom His spirit dwells, (He who now letteth), from
the earth prior to that man of sin being revealed, "2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out
of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

In verse 2:7 we see the term "he who now letteth", this is a direct reference to the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit, who indwells all believers. Until He be taken away, and THEN that man of sin is revealed.

Please note that the lifting away of believers is NOT the second Advent for Christ does not set foot upon
the mount of Olives, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Rapture

Matt. 25:1-13
25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went
forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather
to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to
the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Thess. 4:17-5-6
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail
upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of
darkness.
5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out
of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the
love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the
twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Cor. 15:51-52)

The Coming of the Lord

In Luke 12:36 the Word states that when Christ returns He will be returning from a wedding. In Rev. 19:7-8 we read about the marriage itself. Before the marriage takes place, there is the marriage supper. According to Jewish custom the marriage contract is drawn up first, often including a dowry. This parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us. When the time comes for the wedding to take place, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced, she comes out to meet him, and then the groom takes the bride to his father's house. This is an exact correlation of the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the groom, comes down from heaven, calls up the Church, and after meeting in the air, both He and the bride return to the His Father's house - heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place up in heaven, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation are playing themselves out. After the marriage supper takes place, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean." (Rev 19:14)

Matt. 24:29-31
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall
not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his
elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev. 19:11-16
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called
Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name
written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen,
white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall
rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty
God.
19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD
OF LORDS.

Rev. 19:8
"To her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev. 19:14
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Notice the fine linen white and clean is the righteousness of saints, which are in heaven.

We will then return with the Lord to the earth, and He will destroy the wicked and establish the Millennial Kingdom, and His saints will reign with Him on earth for one thousand years (Rev. 20:1-7).

Zech. 12:10
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of
grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall
mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in
bitterness for his firstborn.

Zech. 14:4-9
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the
east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and
half of it toward the south.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto
Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of
Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come
to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward
the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his
name one.

------------------
A servant of Christ,
Drew

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

 

A question that perplexes me is the history of the pre-tribulation doctrine and how it became so widespread. I must be "unreconstructed" because I hold to a post-tribulation doctrine although I concede that Jesus will return whenever His Father wants Him to return.

I don't think for a moment that I am resourceful, but I believe that God will protect me through the tribulation if that is His Will for me.

Finally, is it heretical to believe a post-tribulation doctrine?

 

I don't believe the one holding back the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the Holy Spirit because many Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9).

I don't believe the one holding back the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the church because many Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Indeed, Paul made clear that Jesus' coming (parousia, 1 Thessalonians 4:15) and our gathering together to him could not occur until after the apostasy and the appearance of the Antichrist, for Jesus' coming (parousia, 2 Thessalonians 2:8) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). There's no 3rd coming (parousia) of Jesus.

Again, I believe it's possible we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a U-turn coming of Jesus whereby he comes only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is also not the 2nd coming?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

In the parable of the 10 virgins, some believe the wise virgins must be taken in a pre-trib rapture. But the door is closed at Christ's coming (Matthew 25:10, compare Luke 13:24-28), which Jesus had just finished saying would be "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).

"And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:40-41). Here Jesus wasn't saying "Watch with me for the imminent rapture for one hour" or "Watch for the imminent rapture that ye enter not into temptation," but "Stay awake with me for one hour," and "Stay awake and pray, that ye enter not into temptation."

Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

I believe this warning and that of Matthew 24:50 is for backsliders (verse 49), and that Christ will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6).

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says nothing regarding the timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation, for tribulation and comfort aren't opposed to each other:

"Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation" (2 Corinthians 1:3-7).

In 1 Thessalonians 4:18, Paul meant we're to comfort each other that we'll see our loved ones again, and that all of us -- no matter whether we live or die -- will be resurrected or raptured at Christ's coming.

I believe this refers to the destruction that will come upon the unsaved at the end of the tribulation and at the 2nd coming.

At the death of the two witnesses, at the end of the 42-month reign of the Antichrist, I believe the unsaved will rejoice and make merry and give gifts to one another (Revelation 11:10), thinking that now all is peace and safety, that now the Antichrist can rule unimpeded without any more plagues coming on the earth (Revelation 11:6). But little will they know that sudden destruction is about to come upon them with the 7 vials of God's wrath and Jesus' coming:

"Thy wrath is come.. that thou shouldest... destroy them which destroy the earth" (Revelation 11:18).

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" (2 Thessalonians 1:9-10).

"Then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

That is only in one parable, which says we must watch for that coming (Luke 12:36-40, compare Matthew 24:42).

Some teach that purported ancient Jewish wedding customs require a pre-trib rapture, but they don't cite the ancient Jewish sources for any wedding customs that would require a pre-trib rapture.

Be careful not to be led astray by any "traditions" or teachings of men that are not in the Bible itself (Colossians 2:8, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

What ancient Jewish source says this? The Bible says Christ's coming to us will be announced (Matthew 25:6).

What ancient Jewish source says this? Just as Isaac took his bride into his mother's house (Genesis 24:67), and Jacob did not return to his father's house until some 13 years after his wedding (the 20 years of Genesis 31:41 minus the 7 years of Genesis 29:20), so John 14:2-3 doesn’t require that the rapture take us into heaven, for here Jesus doesn't say he'll take us into heaven. What he says is he'll receive us unto himself, as does 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Matthew 24:29-31, and elsewhere.

Note again that the Bible shows neither the judgment nor the marriage of the church nor the marriage supper as happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.

The marriage and supper are not announced until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14).

"The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10).

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:17, Isaiah 25:5-9).

Some say Jesus will come "for" believers at the rapture and then bring them "with" him from heaven at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:14). But I believe the Bible says Jesus will come back once, both with and for his bride, for the spirits of the dead in Christ will return "with" Christ from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:14) and their bodies will be resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

Most of the church will be returning "with" Christ from the 3rd heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:14), as most of it will have died before or during the tribulation. But in Revelation 19:14 "heaven" is the 1st heaven, the sky, where Jesus is revealed to the nations, as in Matthew 24:30's "heaven."

I believe the purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), and we'll all descend with Christ to the battle (Revelation 19:14-15), and then land in Jerusalem for the supper (Revelation 19:9, Isaiah 25:5-9).

While it says faithful Christians will suffer and die under the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), it also says some Christians will be protected on the earth during the final period of the great tribulation by fleeing to a place prepared (Revelation 12:14, compare Matthew 24:15-16), for some must be "alive and remain" at Jesus' coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15).

I don't believe eschatology itself can be heretical because a heretic can't be saved (Galatians 5:20-21), and we aren't saved by our eschatology (Romans 10:9-10).

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

[ May 25, 2002, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: postrib ]

 

Evidently, the pre-tribulation doctrine originated in the early 19th century. How it became the regular doctrine of conservative Christians is a puzzle to me. It seems to me that there is a lot of hostility towards the post-tribulation doctrine.

I agree with you, postrib, that it is not heresy but the overwhelming majority of conservative Christians may label post-tribulation doctrine as heretical--and that creates a problem. In effect, the subject becomes closed before the case has been fully presented. It seems to me that there is too much awe for the anti-Christ if one says that no Christian can thrive while anti-Christ reigns.

 

First of all you must understand that the Second Coming of Jesus to the EArth is the second time that he touches the Earth physically which will be at the end of the Great Tribulation when he will cause the Mount of Olives to cleave in two.

The Rapture will be the appearing of Jesus in the clouds to catch away his bride. There is no physical contact with this planet by Jesus.

Jesus only spoke of the End Time to his Jewish listeners. Jesus did not come to the Gentiles but to Israel. Therefore Jesus was speaking in the Gospels of events for the Jews.

As far as people being saved during the Great Tribulation the Rapture will cause thousands to come to Christ. Not only those who never received him but those who thought they had a true salvation experience but find out they did not. Then the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed will bring the gospel to souls who will find salvtion. These tribulation Saints will be martyred for the gospel. Not all. Some will survive.

the 144,000 Jews will have a seal in their foreheads from God therefore they are under divine protection and will not die by the persecution of the Anti-Christ.

What must be understood is that Jesus will not allow his bride to go through the tribulation because of what will transpire. Those who say why won't he allow this since the church was persecuted by Rome. THere is far more going on through the tribulation besides the Anti-Christ persecuting the Saints. Look at all the horrible plagues being poured out. Do you think for a minute Jesus wants his bride to go through these plagues. This is the wrath of God. Do you think it would be fair for those who accepted Jesus and is saved before the tribulation to go through the wrath?

The ones who find salvation after the rapture and during the tribulation will those who had a chance to come to Christ but delayed.
They had a chance to find salvation but put it off for whatever reason. Yet there will be those who did put off who never come to Christ at all and end up with the mark and eternally damned.

Those who suffered Persecution by Rome was martyred but they did not have to face the bowls and trumpets of wrath.

As far as saying we are giving to much credence to the Anti-Christ the bible said he will be given power to make war with the Saints and to over come them.

 

Assuming that the pre-tribulation doctrine originated in the 1830s in the British Isles, how did it ever find its way from its Pentecostal roots into Evangelical and Fundamental thinking? From a worldwide perspective, pre-tribulation rapture must still be a minority doctrine. The death toll among Christians today persecuted for their faith by communism and Islam is very high--perhaps higher than at any other time in the history of the world. Is this not a warning of what it means to be a Christian? How is the Bride better than the Master?

 

Epharaem the Syrian said in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Colossians 3:4
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1 Thessalonians 2:19
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord
Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the
coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Rev. 19:8
"To her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev. 19:14
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Notice the fine linen white and clean is the righteousness of saints, which are in heaven.

A servant of Christ,
Drew

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a new heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.

 

From the internet, I have read that there is a smattering of references to a pre-tribulation doctrine from the church fathers. Still, did this become a doctrine of consequence before the 19th century? How did it go from the British Isles to its widespread belief in the USA today? Am I to believe that the wrath of God will be so indiscriminate that it could be poured out on His own children? Another thing, was the pre-tribulation doctrine an issue in the Protestant Reformation or is a new development? Must I believe in a pre-tribulation doctrine to a member is good standing in a local church?

 

Well, wouldn't it be something if all the post-tribbers got left behind because they weren't looking for Jesus to appear in the clouds & weren't listening for the sound of the trumpet? Just a thought.... Stay here thru the Woe of Woes if you want to...not me, I'm going up!

 

One up on the rest of us, huh?

Does anyone know anything about the history of this pre-tribulation doctrine? Can anyone address my questions?

 

Based on what verse?

Note again that Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't specifically show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is also not the 2nd coming?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

Some say Matthew 24 is spoken only to the Jews. But I believe Matthew 24 is spoken to Christians, as is Mark 13. Why do many who believe pre-trib say Matthew 24 isn't for Christians, yet then say Matthew 24:36-44 is for Christians? Jesus is speaking to the same people in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

"Ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake" (Matthew 24:9). I don't believe the worldwide persecution of all Christians -- in all nations -- has yet begun. Unbelieving Jews will not be hated for Jesus' name's sake. Matthew 24:9's "ye" refers to Christians -- Jew or Gentile -- as does every "ye" throughout Matthew 24.

While the Bible shows Christians in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), note that it doesn't expressly show anyone repenting during the tribulation. In fact, it repeatedly says the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and Paul says that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation were saved before the tribulation began, for nowhere does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

Lest any unbelievers get complacent and think "Oh, when I see all that Antichrist stuff then I'll repent and believe," I think we should warn them: "Then it may be too late; God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."

Some say the 144,000 are Jewish Christians only. But I believe when Gentile Christians are grafted into spiritual Israel (Romans 11:17), they're joined to one of the 12 tribes (compare Ezekiel 47:21-23), so that the 144,000 Christians of the 12 tribes sealed in the tribulation (Revelation 7:3-8, 14:1-3) are both Gentile and Jewish Christians alive today who will enter into the tribulation.

Note that the Bible doesn't show the 144,000 as evangelists.

Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 15:1).

The vials contain God's wrath (Revelation 16), yet not one of them is directed at Christians. I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

Do you mean a Pseudo-Ephraem manuscript? Isn't that a forgery?

Note again that most of the church will be returning "with" Christ from the 3rd heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:14), as most of it will have died before or during the tribulation. But in Revelation 19:14 "heaven" is the 1st heaven, the sky, where Jesus is revealed to the nations, as in Matthew 24:30's "heaven."

Note again that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41). Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

Matthew 24 and 25 was directed to the Jews not the Gentiles.

In I Thessalonians it tells us that we will meet Jesus in the Air. This is proof that Jesus will not touch the Earth.

The Comings of Jesus means when he physically comes to Earth which he did 2,000 years ago and
when he descends to Earth and stand on the Mount of Olives and it splits in two. Therefore there is two comings of Jesus. One that has happened and another that will happen at the end of the Great Trbiulation.

The point is being missed. I did not say Christians may not face persecution in the future but Jesus will not allow his bride to suffer the wrath of God. The 144,000 Jews are sealed so they do not suffer the wrath just like Israel did not suffer the plagues of Egypt.

There is also a Second 144,000 you find in the Book of REvelation who are Gentiles. These are those who are undefiled and blameless.

As far as the belief in pre-trib this belief was taught even by Tertullian one of the great church Fathers. it was also believed by Polycarp who was Terullians mentor.