GODS 10 COMMANDMENTS

Apperently it is.

Your lack of understanding is shown here. Three things are spoken of here: annual festivals, monthly festivals, and weekly holy days.
The annual festival was the Day of Atonement which was a type of Christ atoning for our sins.
The monthly festivals included sacrifices and offerings which pictured Jesus Christ.
The weekly holy days were the Sabbath was also a picture or shadow of the True Sabbath which was to come--Jesus Christ.
All three: the yearly, the monthly, and the weekly were shadows of the reality. which is Christ. Christ is our Atonement; the Lamb which takes away the Sin of the world, the Only Sabbath which can give us rest. The others are simply shadows, pictures that give an image of the real thing. I am sorry that you don't have the real thing--Christ. You only cling to a shadow. You perfer the Law, the Sabbath, to Christ. The law condemns. It is Christ that saves.

Context is everything. This verse gives the context of which verses 16 and 17 were written in. It doesn't show that Christ is the Sabbath. I never said it did. What it does show is that the Law is done away with. The Law, the Ten Commandments, are nailed to the cross. He has blotted it out. It is no more binding on the believer today. No man could keep it; not even the Jew. The purpose of the law was to show man his sin. It could never save, not in the OT, neither in the NT. The law is not part of salvation, and never was. Christ nailed the law to the cross, including the Sabbath. We no longer have to keep the Sabbath. We are not bound to it. It is nailed to the cross; done away with. Christ is our True Sabbath.

Again, this is due to your lack of study of the Scriptures, and your own presuppositions, especially the denial of the divinity of Christ.

I would choose your words carefully if I were you. In the past you have said that Jesus Christ is not the one and only true God, and yet in some way is God, or a god. Your belief is similar to the J.W.s not mine. You believe in more than one God, it seems like--perhaps even akin to the Hindus.
DHK

 

I am still waiting. </font>[/QUOTE]now </font>[/QUOTE]I will assume that the above answer that you typed "now" is a typo meaning "no."
In other words you do not believe in the deity of Christ, the one and only true God.

 

Uh, yeah, new moons too. That's the Biblical method of keeping time. Evening and a morning is a day, and one new moon to the next is a month. The verses that precede that passage don't have anything to do with the prophecy of the New Earth. They are prior to the 'come to pass' phrase.

No one is saying it should be. It is the blue print for how it is going to be in the New Heaven and New Earth!

I'm sorry, but that's one of the silliest things I've heard in a long time. God never had any intention of the Old Covenant remaining. And He DID establish His Kingdom through her! How do ya think we got Jesus????

Ok, where do you get 'original universal laws' from? That's a new one! If ANYTHING, the first law laid down was the Sabbath!!! It's mentioned before there was ever any sin!

They still stand as strong as they did before. You can't explain away scripture. The Sabbath was made for man, right after the first man was made, and it will stand for eternity.

No, I just assumed that if you are going to ignore God in one Commandment, you might as well ignore them all because that is what you are doing by ignoring one.

Always? Kind of like the Sabbath that God made for MAN, BEFORE there was ever any sin? Before the tree was introduced to them? Matt 5:17. THAT'S your proof? Did you read v 18??
No one jot or tittle, surely you know what that means.

So just 9 of them. I'm not buying it.

Actually they asked of ALL the Commandments which was greatest. And it isn't just the law that hangs on the two, the prophets are right there with them. Christ's fulfilment of the law, was by fulfilling the penalty for sin. He was able to be the ultimate sacrifice because He didn't break a single commandment! We are commended to be LIKE Christ. You do the math.

I don't get your logic at all. Are you a man? The Sabbath was made for you. Do you plan on being in the New Heaven and the New Earth? You will keep the Sabbath there! Why not start now, and that way you'll know what's going on if you get there!

Do you know the chronology of the Bible? Do you know who wrote the first 5 books of the Bible, and when he wrote them?

Even through all the time between creation and Sinai, there were still people who were faithful to God. If you look briefly over the first few chapters of 1 Chronicles you will see that from Adam to Abraham, there were those who were counted faithful to God. Follow that geneology down to David, and again you will see men who continued to be 'faithful' to God. How did they know what to do? They already knew the Law before Sinai. Just as you confirm in your next statement. Men were breaking them, and there were those who were faithful.

Good point. But is it valid? This is where we must go back to the fact that there was no written account until Moses started writing the first 5 books. Anyone can see just by reading the first 2 chapters of Genesis that they are some what mixed up! Did Moses NEED to mention that the faithful of God were keeping the Sabbath up until the captivity? No. What was the first thing they started doing AGAIN when they were finally set free? (other than complaining ) Before they sacrificed anything, or waved anything, or built anything, God REESTABLISHED the Sabbath of Creation with them through the 'Manna'. What does the Manna symbolize? (John 6) Jesus of course! So THROUGH Jesus He reminded them of the Sabbath JOY. They had such a hard time even THEN after all those years of bondage in Egypt (sin) accepting God's Rest. He gave then a days worth of bread (Jesus) for 5 days, and then on the 6th day gave them a double portion! So they wouldn't have to work on the Sabbath! If it wasn't important to Him, WHY was that the FIRST thing He reestablished with them? It just makes sense.

No, there is no need for assumption. There were always people of God who were faithful, living among the men who were wicked. Even among those who got licked up in the flames. (Lot)

Now on that, you are wrong. But before I go into that, let me say, we most likely won't agree on what exactly is going to take place in the 'end times' so please be patient enough to look past that portion of my opinion, and only respond to the part that has to do with the Sabbath .
The Bible is clear that there will be two kinds of people on this earth when Jesus comes back. The Wicked and the Righteous. What defines a righteous person? (Luke 1: 6. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.) What defines a wicked person? (Romans 1 is my personal favorite, but there are many. The tall and short of it is this: they are disobedient.)
SO on that premise: We must determine WHAT sin is. Because it is the WICKED that will be destroyed, the WICKED that will be consumed by the fire. Because of LAWLESSNESS. Those who live in sin, knowing that they are committing sin, are purposing in their wicked hearts to sin against God. See Romans 1, knowing that it is sin, and doing it anyway leaves a person with no more a sacrifice for their sin. Without a sacrifice for their sin, that sin goes unforgiven. SO, by ignoring the Commandments of God, people will be choosing error and wickedness over righteousness, and it is the RIGHTEOUS who will shine with Christ. This is not a question of keeping 'a' sabbath. It is THE Sabbath of THE ONE TRUE GOD. The God of Israel, Who I am a servant of, gave His children THE Sabbath. It is the Seventh Day of the week. From evening to evening. It is Holy. There is PLENTY spoken of about the Sabbath all over the Bible. Even in passages about 'end times'. Read Isaiah 65-66. Many believe Isaiah to be somewhat of a 'cliff's notes' of the prophecies of the Bible. Kind of a 'Brief History' if you will. The last 2 chapters not only mention the Sabbath, but tell us how to tell TRUE worship from false worship. TRUE Sabbath from false Sabbath. (See Isaiah 66:1) Where is the place of my Rest? That word rest is not speaking of the Sabbath Rest, but of a 'habitation'. God wants to know what happened to His HOUSE!!! Read those two chapters, reference after reference of churches that are polluted by paganism, and falsehood!

I'm not certain what you are referring to with your reference to the final rebellion, so please clarify that, and I will respond then.

Eh, I'm going to have to disagree here as well. Noah was never told he could eat anything he wanted to. Even Noah knew what was clean and unclean. And I can guarantee you he didn't eat pigs. Want to know how I know that? Because we still have them today. There were only ONE male and ONE female of each UNCLEAN animal on the ark. When God brought the animals to Noah (Noah didn't gather them up like the kids books show), He sent the unclean by two's, but the clean in sets of SEVEN. Many believe that men who were faithful to God before Noah didn't even eat meat until after the flood. There are many who considered the antideluvian lifespan to be caused by the fact that they weren't eating flesh food. (if it is true) NOW, about that verse you referenced: Genesis 9:3, surely if that is all we read, every living thing on the planet is now ok to eat. How about me? Can you eat me? That's what it said! We need to let the Bible interpret itself. There is enough in just the flood account to support that we shouldn't eat unclean meat. God sent the clean animals into the ark in surplus so that Noah could sacrifice to God, and so they could eat. If God wanted man to start eating pig, He would have sent more.

And He also wouldn't have said this:
Isaiah 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
And yet as if He hadn't been clear enough:
Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

Did you catch that last part? You wanted to see some end times stuff about the sins I mentioned, specifically the Sabbath and unclean meat. Well THERE'S your unclean meat!

Consumed together!

Sabbath? You want end times? Here is the absolute END!

Isaiah 66: 22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

After all those pork eating, lawless people are consumed, the righteous will worship God ON THE SABBATH and look upon the carcases of those who IGNORED God. They are abhorring even now.

Ok, the people of Israel hadn't forgotten about God. They had been begging him for a few centuries to set them free. It was the SABBATH that they had forgotten because they had been working 7 days a week in Egypt. The Sabbath is a sign between the people of God and God. Not just the seed of Abraham. See Isaiah 66 AGAIN. Not just Israel but ALL FLESH will come worship before Him, ON THE SABBATH. New Moons too!

Where does it say in the Bible, that Christ fulfilled the law to the extent that in the Spirit, the letter is now abolished?
You cannot keep the Spirit of the Law while breaking the Letter of the Law!

Is it just the Sabbath that He fulfills? Why not the others? If Christ fulfilling the Sabbath gives you liberty to BREAK the Sabbath Commandment WHY doesn't it give you liberty to break the others? It didn't say He fulfilled the 4th commandment! It said He fulfilled the LAW. SO, that means ALL of it. If He fulfilled the LAW (and He did), then why not murder? Cheat on your wife? Steal? He fulfilled it! Come on man! SIN is breaking the Law! WORKING on the Sabbath is a SIN.

That's where you are both in error. You cannot blot out the verses in the Bible just because they make your false conclusions look bad! Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man. If you make Jesus the Sabbath, you just made Him, MADE for man, and Lord of Himself! There is NOTHING illogical about that conclusion.
The illogical conclusion is the one which states that we don't have to obey God's commandment because Jesus IS the Sabbath!

HOGWASH!

NO WHERE is marriage Commanded. How many commandments out of the 600+ do you think have to do with the Sabbath?
Moot argument. Nice analogy though!

The fact that it was made for man is not what makes it binding. It is the fact that it is COMMANDED BY GOD, that it is binding. The fact that it was made for man, is what proves that the Sabbath Commandment wasn't just for Israel.

What thinking? Are you referring to the thought that we should obey God? I'm sure that's not what Jesus was referring to.

In fact I know exactly what He was referring to when He said that.

People imposing MAN MADE rules on people.

I can think of a few religious groups who do that today, how about you?

You didn't really address this, in the last post so I have left it intact:

God Bless,
Kelly

 

I am still waiting. </font>[/QUOTE]now </font>[/QUOTE]I will assume that the above answer that you typed "now" is a typo meaning "no."
In other words you do not believe in the deity of Christ, the one and only true God. </font>[/QUOTE]No, it's you who made the typo.

Pay attention.

 

Apparent to who? How many times have you read the Bible? How long did you spend studying out what you call truth before you believed in it? Or do you just take the word of commentaries?

Why do you allow Satan to control your mind? I don't need your false god. You keep him all to yourself. I have the Only God I will ever need, who has set me free from the bondage of sin, and redeemed me with the Blood of His precious Son. I keep His Sabbath Holy because I love Him. What do you do? Persecute those who are faithful, and lead people astray. No peace will be upon you as long as you live like that!

Well, it sure seems like it. I asked you to provide the verses in Hebrews 4 (where you claim they are) that state that Jesus is the Sabbath, and instead you quote two verses from two different books, and a commentary! You are STILL dancing!

Ok, here is what you just said:

"Christ nailed the law to the cross, including Jesus. We no longer have to keep Jesus. We are not bound to Him. He is nailed to the cross; done away with. Christ is our True Jesus."

Makes SOOOO much sense!

How ya figure? I will not accept commentary as proof. How does that show a lack of study of SCRIPTURES??? And again, get off the divinity of Christ, it has NOTHING to do with the Sabbath.

Well, you aren't me, and I'm not going to change my position. You are making Jesus out to be a created being, who is Lord of Himself.

I don't believe anything similar to the JW's, they think Jesus was Satans brother.

(you know a created being who is lord of himself, like what you are saying)

I believe what the Bible says.

Jesus is the Son of the Most High God, who proceeded forth and came from God.

It is not me who believes in more than one god.

I believe in the One True God of the Bible, Yahweh.

In the past you have twisted my words, just as you are now, to make them say something I am not saying.

I've never said that Jesus was created, or that He is the One True God.

I believe the Bible.

It doesn't say either.

 

Nope, I don’t get it, because you are putting words in his mouth that just are not there. It’s the same sort of stunt that reporters pull (not all reporters, mind you, but it’s the kind of thing that shows up in the media).

I admit it; I know DHK; and I do know that he does not teach that Jesus was created. If he did, he would not be in the pastorate, at least not at our church.

Anyway, I doubt you could prove it even though you think you have. The evidence is very strong that he does not hold to that position. Otherwise, why would he have said:

So, where in this entire thread did DHK say that Jesus was created? Or on this entire Board, as a matter of fact? I mean, the actual words, not a supposed conclusion that you drew from his statements. I have a notion it isn’t there. Do you think you could make your accusation stick in a court of law? Not likely.

 

Would you care to explain this? What does "proceeded forth" mean?

 

I haven't put any words in his mouth.

Well batton down the hatches folks, he's called in reinforcements!!!

Not trying to prove he believes that. I know DHK too, I've been arguing with him for over a year. I never said he believes it.

Obviously, he doesn't. Only a complete moron would miss that.

Well, let's see, since I never said he BELIEVED it, it's really not my problem to try and prove to you that he said it, now is it?

Now we are getting somewhere. For a minute there are I was wondering if you were even reading this thread at all!

Which accusation would that be?

The one that doesn't exist?

Do they have a court of law for that?

For the imaginary crimes committed on Message Boards on the internet?

I bet DHK has a commentary about it, why don't you ask him

 

No you don't. Look at your unbiblical beliefs below.

No, Jesus IS the Most High God. He did not proceed at some point and time, making him a created being. This is the way that you twist the Scripture. He is not a created being that proceeded forth. He is God, the second person of the all-existing eternal triune Godhead, that always was and always will be. He is the Most High one and only true God.

There is only one God.
Isaiah 43:10-11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

There is only one God. Christ is that God.

His name in the New Testament is Jesus

You already said that Jesus was created above; and you deny that He is the one true God, as you have above.

You don't believe the Bible. It is apparent from the above statements.
DHK

 

Would you care to explain this? What does "proceeded forth" mean? </font>[/QUOTE]See John 8

Strong's Ref. # 1831

Romanized exerchomai
Pronounced ex-er'-khom-ahee

from GSN1537 and GSN2064; to issue (literally or figuratively):

KJV--come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad.

 

I haven't put any words in his mouth.

Well batton down the hatches folks, he's called in reinforcements!!!

Not trying to prove he believes that. I know DHK too, I've been arguing with him for over a year. I never said he believes it.

Obviously, he doesn't. Only a complete moron would miss that.

Well, let's see, since I never said he BELIEVED it, it's really not my problem to try and prove to you that he said it, now is it?

Now we are getting somewhere. For a minute there are I was wondering if you were even reading this thread at all!

Which accusation would that be?

The one that doesn't exist?

Do they have a court of law for that?

For the imaginary crimes committed on Message Boards on the internet?

I bet DHK has a commentary about it, why don't you ask him

</font>[/QUOTE]Methinks, you are confused; you don't even remember what you wrote. Here’s what you wrote:

And no, you don't know DHK; I've known him for over 20 years. One year is not long enough to say you know him.

 

And no, you don't know DHK; I've known him for over 20 years. One year is not long enough to say you know him. </font>[/QUOTE]Yup that's what I said, didn't quote him, didn't say 'you said'. So my last post still stands.

I feel sorry for you that you've had to be around him for 20 years, but none the less, discussing doctrine for over a hear does give me liberty to say I know him.

But since you say I don't I think I'll cry myself to sleep tonight.

 

This is your answer to the commentary of Col.3:16,17? How precious? Maybe I should file it away with my other commentaries on the same passage. It gives such tremendous light on the subject.

You may have brought up Heb.4; that is true. The original challenge was to shou from SCRIPTURE that Jesus is our Sabbath. I used a different Scripture. Does this bother you?

No, anybody reading what I posted (except you), can see that that is not what I said. Those festivals (including the Sabbath) were shadows of the Christ to come. They nailed Christ to the cross, not his shadow. When Christ was nailed to the cross He did away with the law, in a picture, Paul says nailing the Law to the cross. The cross is a picture of death. Common criminals (such as the two thieves) were nailed on crosses too. Likewise the law (in a picture). It was done away with. Do you understand what a metaphor is?

How honored I am. You will accept my commentary over and above the reputed and scholarly men of the ages. I feel so honored by you.

Is this the accusation that Cherry5 was referring to--accusing me of saying that Christ is created. Over the course of this thread you have done this many times. But in your twisted logic you fail to see it.
The fact is that you truly believe that Christ is a created being, and that truly is the sad thing of it all.
You need to repent, trust the true and living Christ--the one and only most high God, as your Saviour and Lord. Then and only then will find salvation.
DHK

 

3AM:I believe what the Bible says.

DHK:No you don't. Look at your unbiblical beliefs below.

3AM:I still can't believe you are a pastor. Do you lie to them too, or am I just privilaged?

3AM: Jesus is the Son of the Most High God, who proceeded forth and came from God.

DHK: No, Jesus IS the Most High God. He did not proceed at some point and time, making him a created being. This is the way that you twist the Scripture. He is not a created being that proceeded forth. He is God, the second person of the all-existing eternal triune Godhead, that always was and always will be. He is the Most High one and only true God.

3AM: Ok, didn't twist anything, didn't call him created. You claim my statement is unscriptural?

Yours is an out and out LIE. With no scripture to back it up!

NO WHERE does it say that Jesus is the MOST HIGH GOD. But low and behold, what do we have here:

"Mark 5:7. And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee,

JESUS, THOU SON OF THE MOST HIGH GOD?

I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not."

Scripture to support my 'unscriptural' statement!

3AM: It is not me who believes in more than one god.

DHK: There is only one God.
Isaiah 43:10-11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

There is only one God. Christ is that God.

3AM: Once again post a verse that doesn't in any way, shape, or form support your statement! Are you sure you are a pastor?

3AM: I believe in the One True God of the Bible, Yahweh.

DHK: His name in the New Testament is Jesus

3AM: No, that would be His SON. Yeshua. Jesus is the SON of the Most High God, Yahweh.

3am: In the past you have twisted my words, just as you are now, to make them say something I am not saying.
I've never said that Jesus was created, or that He is the One True God.

DHK: You already said that Jesus was created above; and you deny that He is the one true God, as you have above.

3AM: I never said that Jesus was created. Never even implied it. I just quoted the Bible, if you don't like it take it up with God, He's the one who inspired it! If you can't deal with the Bible go back to your safety net of your commentaries!

3AM: I believe the Bible. It doesn't say either.

DHK: You don't believe the Bible. It is apparent from the above statements.

3AM:

Do you actually think you are convincing anyone of that?

My statements are STRAIGHT out of the BIBLE.

Where are yours from????

I'll tell you where:

1 Timothy 4:1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2. Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

 

No, that's my answer to your judgmental, satanic attitude that causes you to tell people you don't agree with that they are lost. And yes, how I love my God and my Savior is precious. Very. Sad that you don't take it seriously.

I didn't bring up Hebrews 4, you did. The challenge was to show us from Hebrews 4, where you said it was, where it said 'Jesus is the Sabbath', and you posted a commentary and 2 verses that aren't in Hebrews! I don't mind you using other verses, by all means if you can prove your point from scripture, I'd much rather you do that.

No, no, that's what you said. You said Jesus is the Sabbath, so anytime I see 'Sabbath' or 'Jesus' those words are interchangable. If you tell me apples are oranges, everytime I see apple I can replace it with orange! Your ascertion makes no sense when compared to scripture.

No. You don't either. Jesus is not the Sabbath. Jesus Himself said He DID NOT come to abolish the law, but according to YOU He did away with it completely, lock, stock, and two smoking barrells! LIES.

Well, don't get too excited, I value your opinion about as much as I value the opinion of Benny Hinn.

No, I didn't accuse you of saying anything. I said you are making Him out to be a created being, like Satan, because you are. You think Jesus is the Sabbath, and it is a COLD HARD FACT that the Sabbath was MADE for man, and that Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath. When all that is added up we get Jesus who was made for man, and is Lord of HIMSELF. That's what YOUR statement adds up to when compared to scripture. LIKE IT OR NOT.

Yeah, that would be sad, if it were true.

But I don't, so once again you are wrong.

Let's see... repent, done that, trust in the true and living Christ as my Savior and Lord.... done that, and know for a fact that He is NOT the One and Only Most High God, because the Bible tells me who that is, and it IS NOT JESUS.

I'm not looking for Salvation in a false god that is like satan, who is a created being and lord of himself.

But then, I'm also not believing and promoting a lie like you are.

 

I am sorry that you can't see the clarity in Isa.43:10,11. It says quite clearly there that there is only one God: no god was formed before Him, and no God shall ever be formed after Him. He then identifies Himself, not only as the only God, but as the Saviuor Himself. The only one in the Bible that is identified as the Saviour is Jesus Christ. He is the One who is prophesied to come. "and thou shall call his name Immanuel" (Isa.7:14). "And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is God with us." (Mat.1:23). If Christ is not God, then who is He according to Isa.7:14 and Mat.1:23? According to your theology he is a lesser god, another god?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
--The Word, Jesus Christ, is God. According to you, He is another god, a lesser god. Are you a polytheist?
God is Yahweh. Yes, I can go along with that. There is only one God. That is repeated over and over again in the Old Testament, and in the New. If there is only One God, that God must be Jesus Christ. He is the one who claims to be God, and of whom the Scripture speaks of as being God.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Which God was manifest in the flesh? How many god's do you believe in?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
--Who is this speaking of? Which child was born? Of whom was the prophet speaking? There is only One God.

The above verses speak of Yahweh. They also speak of Christ. They are one and the same person.

Jesus is Yeshua. Jesus is Yahweh. There is only one God. You insist on believing in more than one God.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh.
DHK

 

I could answer you but what good would it do?

All you will do is twist my words to say something I am not saying, like you always do.

What's the point?

And don't be so rediculous to say that I can't answer you because I can, I'm just not going to, there's no point.