Originally posted by Eric B:
New moons, too? Also, priest and Levites bringing offerrings? (previous verses).
Uh, yeah, new moons too. That's the Biblical method of keeping time. Evening and a morning is a day, and one new moon to the next is a month. The verses that precede that passage don't have anything to do with the prophecy of the New Earth. They are prior to the 'come to pass' phrase.
Obviously, this cannot be taken as a blueprint for Church practice.
No one is saying it should be. It is the blue print for how it is going to be in the New Heaven and New Earth!
It was a conditional prophesy, had Israel remained faithful, the Old Covenant remain, and God had established His Kingdom through her.
I'm sorry, but that's one of the silliest things I've heard in a long time. God never had any intention of the Old Covenant remaining. And He DID establish His Kingdom through her! How do ya think we got Jesus????
The last five were the moral law, regarding how man behaves on earth toward another. The first three are spiritual, regarding our relation to God. The fourth would fall into this category too, but is more ceremonial, and not in the original universal laws given to man.
Ok, where do you get 'original universal laws' from? That's a new one! If ANYTHING, the first law laid down was the Sabbath!!! It's mentioned before there was ever any sin!
Thus, to answer your objection:
They still stand as strong as they did before. You can't explain away scripture. The Sabbath was made for man, right after the first man was made, and it will stand for eternity.
Your side insists that because we say one doesn't have to keep the Sabbath because we are not under the Law, that we are "throwing out ALL LAW".
No, I just assumed that if you are going to ignore God in one Commandment, you might as well ignore them all because that is what you are doing by ignoring one.
But the moral and spiritual laws that have always been expected of man are still in effect, and now magnified to their full intent (Matt.5).
Always? Kind of like the Sabbath that God made for MAN, BEFORE there was ever any sin? Before the tree was introduced to them? Matt 5:17. THAT'S your proof? Did you read v 18??
No one jot or tittle, surely you know what that means.
Those are the "commandments" the NT talks about.
So just 9 of them. I'm not buying it.
What was nailed was what hung on the two: the ten, plus the 613 that hung on them. ("the Law") When someone asked which of the 10 was most important, He said the two were what was really important.
Actually they asked of ALL the Commandments which was greatest. And it isn't just the law that hangs on the two, the prophets are right there with them. Christ's fulfilment of the law, was by fulfilling the penalty for sin. He was able to be the ultimate sacrifice because He didn't break a single commandment! We are commended to be LIKE Christ. You do the math.
How they break down will include some of the ten, which can be reiterated when referencing the moral/spiritual laws, (and also magnified beyond what the letter of the ten actually said). but we don't assume then that the sabbath must be includes as well. It is never commanded for Christians.
I don't get your logic at all. Are you a man? The Sabbath was made for you. Do you plan on being in the New Heaven and the New Earth? You will keep the Sabbath there! Why not start now, and that way you'll know what's going on if you get there!
Where does it ever say man was keeping it, and the Israelites (out of all the people) STOPPED??? It is not there.
Do you know the chronology of the Bible? Do you know who wrote the first 5 books of the Bible, and when he wrote them?
It is assumed based on the reference to the Sabbath in Creation, but God was free to establish it there, but not command or mention it to anyone until His timing as apart of His plan.
Even through all the time between creation and Sinai, there were still people who were faithful to God. If you look briefly over the first few chapters of 1 Chronicles you will see that from Adam to Abraham, there were those who were counted faithful to God. Follow that geneology down to David, and again you will see men who continued to be 'faithful' to God. How did they know what to do? They already knew the Law before Sinai. Just as you confirm in your next statement. Men were breaking them, and there were those who were faithful.
Man was breaking all of God's laws before Sinai, and of all the things God was condeming man for, sending floods and raining fire and brimstone down, not once did He mention the sabbath.
Good point. But is it valid? This is where we must go back to the fact that there was no written account until Moses started writing the first 5 books. Anyone can see just by reading the first 2 chapters of Genesis that they are some what mixed up! Did Moses NEED to mention that the faithful of God were keeping the Sabbath up until the captivity? No. What was the first thing they started doing AGAIN when they were finally set free? (other than complaining
) Before they sacrificed anything, or waved anything, or built anything, God REESTABLISHED the Sabbath of Creation with them through the 'Manna'. What does the Manna symbolize? (John 6) Jesus of course! So THROUGH Jesus He reminded them of the Sabbath JOY. They had such a hard time even THEN after all those years of bondage in Egypt (sin) accepting God's Rest. He gave then a days worth of bread (Jesus) for 5 days, and then on the 6th day gave them a double portion! So they wouldn't have to work on the Sabbath! If it wasn't important to Him, WHY was that the FIRST thing He reestablished with them? It just makes sense.
Do we assume they kept that alone perfectly, while breaking everything else?
No, there is no need for assumption. There were always people of God who were faithful, living among the men who were wicked. Even among those who got licked up in the flames. (Lot)
(Likewise, in endtime prophesies, we see every other sin condemned, but never not keeping a sabbath.
Now on that, you are wrong. But before I go into that, let me say, we most likely won't agree on what exactly is going to take place in the 'end times' so please be patient enough to look past that portion of my opinion, and only respond to the part that has to do with the Sabbath
.
The Bible is clear that there will be two kinds of people on this earth when Jesus comes back. The Wicked and the Righteous. What defines a righteous person? (Luke 1: 6. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.) What defines a wicked person? (Romans 1 is my personal favorite, but there are many. The tall and short of it is this: they are disobedient.)
SO on that premise: We must determine WHAT sin is. Because it is the WICKED that will be destroyed, the WICKED that will be consumed by the fire. Because of LAWLESSNESS. Those who live in sin, knowing that they are committing sin, are purposing in their wicked hearts to sin against God. See Romans 1, knowing that it is sin, and doing it anyway leaves a person with no more a sacrifice for their sin. Without a sacrifice for their sin, that sin goes unforgiven. SO, by ignoring the Commandments of God, people will be choosing error and wickedness over righteousness, and it is the RIGHTEOUS who will shine with Christ. This is not a question of keeping 'a' sabbath. It is THE Sabbath of THE ONE TRUE GOD. The God of Israel, Who I am a servant of, gave His children THE Sabbath. It is the Seventh Day of the week. From evening to evening. It is Holy. There is PLENTY spoken of about the Sabbath all over the Bible. Even in passages about 'end times'. Read Isaiah 65-66. Many believe Isaiah to be somewhat of a 'cliff's notes' of the prophecies of the Bible. Kind of a 'Brief History' if you will. The last 2 chapters not only mention the Sabbath, but tell us how to tell TRUE worship from false worship. TRUE Sabbath from false Sabbath. (See Isaiah 66:1) Where is the place of my Rest? That word rest is not speaking of the Sabbath Rest, but of a 'habitation'. God wants to know what happened to His HOUSE!!! Read those two chapters, reference after reference of churches that are polluted by paganism, and falsehood!
Will people start keeping it perfectly in the final rebellion?).
I'm not certain what you are referring to with your reference to the final rebellion, so please clarify that, and I will respond then.
Same with kosher meats (and all meats were allowed after the flood (Gen.9:3), and only to Israel were the kosher restrictions commanded.
Eh, I'm going to have to disagree here as well. Noah was never told he could eat anything he wanted to. Even Noah knew what was clean and unclean. And I can guarantee you he didn't eat pigs. Want to know how I know that? Because we still have them today. There were only ONE male and ONE female of each UNCLEAN animal on the ark. When God brought the animals to Noah (Noah didn't gather them up like the kids books show), He sent the unclean by two's, but the clean in sets of SEVEN. Many believe that men who were faithful to God before Noah didn't even eat meat until after the flood. There are many who considered the antideluvian lifespan to be caused by the fact that they weren't eating flesh food. (if it is true) NOW, about that verse you referenced: Genesis 9:3, surely if that is all we read, every living thing on the planet is now ok to eat. How about me? Can you eat me? That's what it said! We need to let the Bible interpret itself. There is enough in just the flood account to support that we shouldn't eat unclean meat. God sent the clean animals into the ark in surplus so that Noah could sacrifice to God, and so they could eat. If God wanted man to start eating pig, He would have sent more.
And He also wouldn't have said this:
Isaiah 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments,
which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
And yet as if He hadn't been clear enough:
Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst,
eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.
Did you catch that last part? You wanted to see some end times stuff about the sins I mentioned, specifically the Sabbath and unclean meat. Well THERE'S your unclean meat!
Consumed together!
Sabbath? You want end times? Here is the absolute END!
Isaiah 66: 22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
After all those pork eating, lawless people are consumed, the righteous will worship God ON THE SABBATH and look upon the carcases of those who IGNORED God. They are abhorring even now.
That's not what I said. It was "added" at the time of Sinai, both for the reason I gave (Israel's identity), and because of sin, they neeeded a strict reminder of God, and a mandatory day to focus only on Him.
Ok, the people of Israel hadn't forgotten about God. They had been begging him for a few centuries to set them free. It was the SABBATH that they had forgotten because they had been working 7 days a week in Egypt. The Sabbath is a sign between the people of God and God. Not just the seed of Abraham. See Isaiah 66 AGAIN. Not just Israel but ALL FLESH will come worship before Him, ON THE SABBATH. New Moons too!
Today, the Spirit, through Christ accomplishes that for us.
Where does it say in the Bible, that Christ fulfilled the law to the extent that in the Spirit, the letter is now abolished?
You cannot keep the Spirit of the Law while breaking the Letter of the Law!
That is why Christ fulfills the Sabbath.
Is it just the Sabbath that He fulfills? Why not the others? If Christ fulfilling the Sabbath gives you liberty to BREAK the Sabbath Commandment WHY doesn't it give you liberty to break the others? It didn't say He fulfilled the 4th commandment! It said He fulfilled the LAW. SO, that means ALL of it. If He fulfilled the LAW (and He did), then why not murder? Cheat on your wife? Steal? He fulfilled it! Come on man! SIN is breaking the Law! WORKING on the Sabbath is a SIN.
I had explained before that "Christ=Sabbath" was only biblical typology, not literal, but one on your side simply mocks that idea, while you still accuse DHK of making Christ a Created being (He identified Himself with the Sabbath by saying He was Lord of it. Has nothing to do with "It was created, so He was Created". Sabbath was MADE for man; Christ CAME for man).
That's where you are both in error. You cannot blot out the verses in the Bible just because they make your false conclusions look bad! Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man. If you make Jesus the Sabbath, you just made Him, MADE for man, and Lord of Himself! There is NOTHING illogical about that conclusion.
The illogical conclusion is the one which states that we don't have to obey God's commandment because Jesus IS the Sabbath!
HOGWASH!
As I have said elsewhere, marriage was also made for man, who was commanded to "be fruitful and multiply" in the Creation, and forehadows the eternal reality of our union with Christ, but not every person is obligated to participate in marriage.
NO WHERE is marriage Commanded. How many commandments out of the 600+ do you think have to do with the Sabbath?
Moot argument. Nice analogy though!
I don't see how you thing "made for man" equals some sort of binding of all men.
The fact that it was made for man is not what makes it binding. It is the fact that it is COMMANDED BY GOD, that it is binding. The fact that it was made for man, is what proves that the Sabbath Commandment wasn't just for Israel.
That's precisely the type of thinking Christ was speaking against when He said that.
What thinking? Are you referring to the thought that we should obey God? I'm sure that's not what Jesus was referring to.
In fact I know exactly what He was referring to when He said that.
People imposing MAN MADE rules on people.
I can think of a few religious groups who do that today, how about you?
You didn't really address this, in the last post so I have left it intact:
NOW, if you can honestly reconcile with your own opinion and the Bible that God allowed people to live in a 7 day work week from Creation up to the Manna account and not once mention anything about it, KNOWING that the Sabbath was going to stand for eternity (as shown by Isaiah 66), then it is not within the pages of Scripture to convince you. Sadly.
God Bless,
Kelly
