Mother Mary??

I'm sorry that I even put the quote from Shepard in if it caused you so much consternation. That wasn't the main point of the quote. Here is his quote:

That is all that he said.
The rest of the quote, speaking of baptismal regeneration, comes from whom it says it did, at the end of the full quotation--(Stanley, Christian Institutions, p. 241. New York, 1881).

It is not Shepherd of Hermas that is being quoted there. It is Stanley being quoted concerning baptismal regeneration in his book on Christian Institutions. I wasn't making a case for or against the Shepherd's position on baptism. I hope that clears things up for you.
DHK

 

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

This is the Great Commission, the last command that Jesus gave His disciples before He ascended back into Heaven. The command is broken down into:
1. Go and teach all nations--literally make disciples. This involves witnessing and winning the lost to Christ. The lost need to be saved. They also need to be taught some basic things about Christ.

2. Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
This is the second command which is a simple step of obedience which always takes place after the completion of step one. That is, first they must be saved, and understand what salvation is all about. They must be taught. They must be taught enough to know the basics of salvation and what it means to be baptized.

3. Verse 20 says: "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you." After baptism comes more teaching, more discipling. That is where the local church comes in. If you notice in Acts 2:

Acts 2:41-42 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

After they were saved, they were baptized. After they were baptized they joined the church. After they joined the church, they continued in the Apostle's doctrine (teaching). This is the New Testament pattern for a local church. It is carrying out the Great Commission.

The Baptist name, though honored by present day Baptists, was at first a name given out of derision by the enemies of the Baptists. It comes from our spiritual ancestors, the anabaptists. They were called the anabaptists because, as the name means, they "baptized again." It was mostly the Catholics and Anglicans which accused them of doing this and persecuted them to the hilt, even putting them to death for re-baptizing. The problem was that they had all been baptized as infants, mostly by the Catholics, or by whatever state-church was in power at that time (be it Catholic or Anglican). When a Baptist (or Anabaptist) got saved, he realized that infant baptism was of no consequence at all. It was meaningless. True baptism is by immersion only after one gets saved. Thus he was obligated by the Scriptures to be baptized again. And so they were called Anabaptists by their enemies who persecuted them for doing such. Over time the "ana" was dropped.
We do believe our heritage goes back farther than the anabaptists however. That is just where the name itself first crops up in history. We believe that there are groups of individuals in every age of history right back to the Apostolic Age who have adhered to the same basic principles that we do, though called by different names than we are.
DHK

 

I hope I have anwered your question or remark also. The entire quote that I gave was not citing the Shepherd of Hermas, only the first paragraph. I shouldn't have even included it, having now realized how much confusion it has caused. It was Stanley, in his book that wrote the rest of what was quoted on baptismal regeneration. I have no idea what the Shepherd of Hermas's stand on baptism was.
DHK

 

Um... back to Mary?

Does anyone know the earliest historical reference to Mary as a part of worship?

 

I have a quote about worshipping at Mary's altars -- will that do?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Pagan Doctrines and Practices

Baptist Churches In All Ages
DHK

 

Church Councils define Church Doctrine:

There are 5 types of councils, Diocesan, National, Ecumenical, Plenary, and Provincial. No council has ever changed Church dogma, nor can it, since dogma was proclaimed by Jesus Christ Himself, Acts 6:12,15,15:6,*Gal 2:2.
An Ecumenical Council is where all the Bishops in the world that are entitled to vote, gather under the presidency of the Pope or his representative. There have been 21 Ecumenical councils in the history of the Church, other important councils called 'synods' are marked '*'.
The very first council or meeting of the Apostles and presbyters is recorded in Acts 15, and is called the Council of Jerusalem. Tradition speaks of St. James as being the Bishop of Jerusalem at that time of about 50 AD.

A Church council is usually a reaction as opposed to an action. They are held to define a truth after someone has denied it. Jesus Christ gave His authority in several verses of Holy Scripture. One example is in Luke 10:16, "He who hears you hears me". Armed with this authority, Church teaching has been accepted over the centuries. Then along comes someone who denies a certain teaching and therefore there becomes a need for a Church council to react to the denial. The Council of Ephesus of 431, one such reaction, defined the Blessed Virgin Mary as the "Theotokos", meaning GOD bearer or Mother of GOD. This formal teaching was only done after someone had denied it. Another example is the reaction of the Council of Trent in 1546 which defined again, the canon of Holy Scripture after seven books were denied by the Protestants in their revolt. Non-Catholics look at these reactive Church councils as teaching something new, when in fact, all they are doing is defining a truth that has been taught for centuries without denials.

The Major Councils Are...

Nicaea I, 325: The first world council in Church history was convened at the request of Emperor Constantine I (285-337). Jesus Christ is GOD, and is equal to the Father and to the Holy Spirit, the Nicene Creed.

Constantinople I, 381: divinity of the Holy Spirit, condemned the Arian heresy.

Rome 382: Pope Damasus I, settled the New Testament Canon. *

Hippo 393: work on the New Testament. *

Carthage 397: finalized the New Testament and the Deuterocanonicals. *

Ephesus, 431: Blessed Virgin is the Mother of GOD, hypostatic union.

Chalcedon, 451: condemned Monophysitism.

Constantinople II, 553: condemned the Three Chapters, and Nestorian heresy.

Constantinople III, 680: condemned Monothelitism, and censured Honorius.

Nicaea II, 787: condemned Iconoclasm.

Constantinople IV, 869: ended the Greek schism and deposed Photius.

Lateran I, 1123: issued decrees on celibacy and simony.

Lateran II, 1139: ended the Papal Schism.

Lateran III, 1179: condemned Albigensian and Waldensian heresies.

Lateran IV, 1215: planned a crusade, enacted reforms.

Lyons I, 1245: the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, true body and blood of Christ in the consecration, unleavened bread in hosts.

Lyons II, 1274: reunited the Church with the Greeks.

Vienne, 1311: abolished the Knight Templars.

Constance, 1414: ended the great schism. Basle, Ferrara.

Florence, 1431: union of Greeks, and enacted reforms.

Lateran V, 1512: treated of the Neo-Aristotelians, enacted reforms.

Trent, 1545: convened on Dec 4, 1545, and closed on Dec 4, 1563, it was the longest Church council ever, 18 years, and made the largest number of decrees. It is the most controversial among the Protestants as they claim falsely that the deuterocanonicals were 'added' then, but in fact they were 'reaffirmed'. If they were added, then how could Martin Luther have removed them in 1531? See 'Carthage' above. The council authenticated the Vulgate, and declared the Bible & Tradition are rules of faith.

Vatican I, 1869: Papal infallibility.

Vatican II, 1962: the greatest religious event of the 20th century. So much was accomplished in this council. There are several books written on what was discussed here. Please refer to Vatican Council II, Vols 1,2,3,4,5.

 

I am sure that Catholics place a lot of faith in their magesterium - hoping that it is always correct. Maybe even insisting upon it - as many others insist that their magesterium is correct.

I am guessing that Catholics even find a way to agree with the Lateran IV statements about exterminating Jews, and dissenters from the church.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Thanks for the list.

Which one commanded the inquisition and torture of Christians that differ from the heresies of Rome?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Baptist Churches In All Ages
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Excellent - thanks.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,
What is your deal? You added stuff to what I posted and listed it as quoted by me. You are twisting my post and adding your own comments to them (which are untrue)in an attempt to make it look like I agree with you.

 

And another thing Bob,Commanded extermination for Jews? Where did you come up with that?

Distinguishing Jews Called for in Lateran IV: Canon 68 - On Jews from Jewish virtual library

In some provinces a difference in dress distinguishes the Jews or Saracens from the Christians, but in certain others such a confusion has grown up that they cannot be distinguished by any difference. Thus it happens at times that through error Christians have relations with the women of Jews or Saracens, and Jews and Saracens with Christian women. Therefore, that they may not, under pretext of error of this sort, excuse themselves in the future for the excesses of such prohibited intercourse, we decree that such Jews and Saracens of both sexes in every Christian province and at all times shall be marked off in the eyes of the public from other peoples through the character of their dress. Particularly, since it may be read in the writings of Moses [Numbers 15:37-41], that this very law has been enjoined upon them.

Moreover, during the last three days before Easter and especially on Good Friday, they shall not go forth in public at all, for the reason that some of them on these very days, as we hear, do not blush to go forth better dressed and are not afraid to mock the Christians who maintain the memory of the most holy Passion by wearing signs of mourning.

This, however, we forbid most severely, that any one should presume at all to break forth in insult to the Redeemer. And since we ought not to ignore any insult to Him who blotted out our disgraceful deeds, we command that such impudent fellows be checked by the secular princes by imposing them proper punishment so that they shall not at all presume to blaspheme Him who was crucified for us.

 

Sorry L4H - I did not mean to imply that you would have admitted to all those details of history - I was merely giving you the credit for pointing out the various councils while ALSO adding some of the deleted data that you probobaly just "forgot" to add in.

I am sure none of us would want to miss anything that wonderful RCC was doing in the dark ages you know.

In Christ,


Bob

 

In Christ,

Bob

 

In Christ,

Bob

 

...As I was cleaning our church tonight I had time to think and reflect on things above. I thought of how the Passion movie has opened the back and forth arguing again between Christians and Catholics. Thinking of how we've all been taught tolerance...when our ancestors came to this country way back their families were adamant that they didn't marry outside of their ethnic background and faith. Now we've become one jumbled mess. I know God had it right when He gave this to us "2 Corinthians 6
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

I do believe that there are saved catholics, just as there are saved people who don't even go to church. We strain at a gnat don't we? Matthew 23
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

The IMPORTANT thing here isn't church, it's JESUS...HELLO. Religion has sent many to hell but faith in Jesus hasn't. I'd rather have Jesus than anything the world affords today . The Lord has been showing and confirming something to me lately...

We are vessels right?

Mary was another vessel that God used. God uses us daily to bring forth His will whether we know it or not. If one drop of Mary's blood would have coarsed through Jesus He would not have been our sinless Saviour. She gave birth to her Saviour...our Saviour!!! God used her as a vessel a means of bringing forth the greatest Man that ever lived! Also, If Mary did as Jesus instructed then she would have prayed to our Father in her own Son's name.

We will see all things someday in glory and scoff that we spent so much time arguing these things...we are wasting precious time here...get out, tell those lost sinners of Jesus and add to the Lord's kingdom...snatch those sinners out of the devils hand...

my 2 cents worth...
BG

 

Nothing more satisfying than to see Catholics debunking their own scholars and authorities...

Have at it...

In Christ,

Bob

 

Actually I think the Passion as a "subject" on this board and others tends to show more agreement between Protestants and Catholics than "debate".

In Christ,

Bob