What Scriptures support baptism by immersion?

This is a take-off on WisdomSeeker's thread in the
Baptist-Only section of the board.

I had a conversation with my husband's pastor
quite some time ago, and in it, I mentioned that I
disagreed with his premise that baptism by
pouring and sprinkling were as legitimate as
choices for baptism as was immersion for the
common people (i.e. those without physical
limitations). His response to my saying that the
only legitimate baptism for these was immersion
was to ask where I learned Greek. When I said,
"In a Baptist school," he laughed and replied that
this was the reason I believed only in immersion.

Well, bluntly, I had no leg to stand on. Reasons: </font>

• I had taken Greek long, long ago</font>
• I had not kept up with my studies since then</font>
• Every entity's prejudices effect their teachings</font>

So does anyone have any legitimate historical
reasons to believe that baptiso did not intend
immersion, other than later decisions, after the
canonization, by certain church leaders?

I believe that if the old Writings, and not merely
the Apostolic Writings, had been taken into the
equation, when considering whether baptism
intended immersion or other means, there would
be no question that it intended immersion only.

All the scriptures indicate a submersion in water as the means of baptism.

Secondly, we take the Greek word, which is used to-day, even in modern Greek, in the laundry industry. You would be rather disappointed if a garment you sent to be dyed was only sprinkled or poured upon by the merchant....the word indicates immersion in every sense.

Historically, most churches immersed, even when they had the wrong candidate. For example, the Church of England immersed up to Queen Elizabeth I. She was immersed as an infant. Baptism by sprinkling was introduced when the Scottish Presbyterians took hold in the English Parliament and introduced it from there.

Even to-day, Church of England vicars must immerse if a candidate requests it, and indeed, they do practice immersion on many mission fields.

In England, many of the historic Anglican Churches still have immersion tanks below the floors of the churches.

Since baptism is only an outward sign of an inward grace, it is not essential for the infirm and handicapped populace to be baptized.

Baptism by immersion is supported by scriptural context, history and early church practice.

Cheers,

Jim

The Greek word baptidzo (spelling) was transliterated into English instead of being translated. It means to dunk or immerse. (I suppose that we Baptists would be more accurately called - Dunkers - if the Greek word had been translated properly.)

Baptism portrays the believers identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry - but sprinkling and pouring do not paint the intended picture.

Excuse the sarcasm - but if dunking was good enough for Jesus and the Ethiopian eunuch - I guess it's good enough for me!!

Thank you, Gentlemen. I do agree completely with
both of you.

However, someone else PMed me with a very fine
paper which explained the other side of the issue,
giving reasons both for believing that other modes
are legitimate and for other modes being
demonstrated in the Writings. While I disagree
with the paper and its reasoning, it is well-
written and appears to prove the point.

I do not blame the person for not publishing it
publicly, because they could believe that it would
be just asking for ridicule and bitter argument to
have done so. However, if the writer chooses to
put it here, I would welcome it, and ask that it and
the writer be treated with deserved respect, please.


(I hate to write something like that on this board, but
after what I have read here today, I am shocked
at the freedom some have to treat others with
unimaginable rudeness and disrespecton such a
forum as this.)

[ September 18, 2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

Oops! I can't be on long tonight, but I wanted to
stop by and say that I read nothing on this therad
that was offensive! It was on a couple other
threads.

Well since I am a Methodist (Evangelical, not United) and Brother Jude has not jumped in here with the Episcopal view, let me give a thought or two for you to consider. (Now don't think I want to get into an argument or make a big fuss, just adding another idea, OK?)

I was baptized by immersion when I was 13, but was that when I was really "baptized?" We all agree, I think, that the Greek word and its forms from which we get "baptize" had its common usage in the textile business, specifically the dying of cloth. I also think we might agree that "baptism" was a Jewish concept and practice (which included sprinkling and pouring in the Old Testament) for which an exact Greek translation was not readily available (since the Greeks had no such common concept and practice). Using this word and its forms to describe a spiritual/religious object requires us to discern the key meaning - or meanings.

When we specify dipping or dunking, we are specifying the "mode" most commonly used for the process of dying cloth (but not the only mode!), and we tend, therefore to overlook the most important part of dying a piece of cloth - that the cloth is changed in color. That color is an identification device (we still identify communism with red, purity with white, the brits were "Red Coats" and the Yanks were "Blue Bellies," etc., etc., ad infinitum) is something we agree to but leave out of focus. the result of baptism is an identification with Christ - His color, His banner - and that we are truely changed, in addition, we are worth more, as a piece of dyed cloth is worth more. And I'm sure you can continue this analogy, but my point is that the "mode" is less important than the result - the dying / dieing (pun intended).

OK, thought number two. "Dipping" also means (included in the textile sense) dipping a container into a vat of dye and pouring it out on the cloth, spreading out thicker dyes (about the consistency of blood) over garment or rolled out bolt. It also meant the sprinkling or "painting" of dye (again, especially thicker dyes) on a fabric to make a pattern on it. This begins to make more sense when we look at archeological finds where large scallop shells were used as symbols of baptism (the shell was dipped into the water and the water poured out of the shell onto the head). This idea is backed up by some early church writings, including the Didache. My final point in this thought is that the book of Hebrews - vs. 9:13, 19, 21; 10:22; 11:28, & 12:24 - specifically mentions "sprinkling" in this context (the Jewish concept of purifying/cleansing/santifying), as does Peter in 1 Peter 1:2.

Final thought, for now, is really a reply to Dan Todd's comment,

Excuse the sarcasm - but if dunking was good enough for Jesus and the Ethiopian eunuch - I guess it's good enough for me!!

Click to expand...

I was dunked, too! But not because the Bible says Jesus was dunked. The scripture says He went down into the water and that He came up out of the water. OK, but you and I can go down into the street when it's raining (for city folks), or down into the creek - fishin' hole deep or ankle deep (for country boys), and then we would come back up out of the water, and maybe we got all wet or maybe we didn't. If you rely on the terms used in the scripture, you can't prove or disprove Jesus getting dunked. Personally, I think He did, but the Word doesn't say that. (BTW, same for the Ethiopian Treasurer).

Obviously, I'm not trying to "convert" anyone. In fact, I favor the symbolism involved with immersion, but I also admit, accept, and respect the historic, religious, and covenant significance of the other modes of Baptism.

Your other brother Dan

I've seen an icon (picture) of Jesus - standing in the Jordan river - with John the Baptist pouring water over His head. Didn't make much sense.

The Hebrews texts you cited, as well as 1 Peter, sprinkling was with blood - not water.

Colossians 2:12 - "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

Romans 6:4 - " Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Sprinkling and pouring do not paint the picture of burial.

Dan

The texts I cited do speak of sprinkling with blood (BTW, how does that disqualify them, especially when we speak of being "washed in the blood of the lamb"?), but the Old Testament texts alluded to in these also speak of water. You still have to consider them if you want to examine the full context.

As for "pouring and sprinkling," or annointing, not being involved in the imagry of death and resurrection, I think they are intimately involved when you consider that the corpse is prepared by washing and annointing with fragrent oils and spices. Consider Matthew 26:12 "In pouring this perfumed oil upon my body, she did it to prepare me for burial." When the scripture says...

Colossians 2:12 - "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

and

Romans 6:4 - " Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

...we could also see that we are "washed" and "annointed" and our bodies made ceremonialy clean - as in Christ's burial. If the person being baptized is kneeling (per church tradition), they arise in the newness of their life in Christ, raised up by faith in the grace of Christ.

Thank all of you for these answers. I could never
understand where that pastor was coming from
with his ideas for various ways of baptism, so this
helps, although I disagree with it. He does
many things I do not agree with, or understand
why he is doing them, but I really like and respect
him anyway.

Since this thread is about baptism, what Scripture
is used to demand that baptism must be a public
demonstration? Why does someone other than
the one being baptized say the words (or
blessing)? Why do the people allow someone
else to put them under the water instead of going
under themselves?

Thank you.

Part of the answer is that baptism is a "profession of faith." You can't profess something in secret.

Matthew 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.
15 Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.
16 Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father."

Click to expand...

What better deed than your initial profession of faith. Hiding it implies shame...

Mark 8:38 "Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this faithless and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

Click to expand...

Finally, the law always required two witnesses. I suppose that could be the Holy Spirit and the baptiser, but... the more the merrier

Even Catholic historians "admit" that full water baptism was the method used in the NT.

Please see www.catholicdigest.org for the full article that hints to the changes that have evolved over time.

"Tacking on a little here and dropping a bit there has never altered the essence of the sacrament itself, but by the middle ages, the rite had evolved into something very different from that used by the early Christians".


Pg 44 "go into the world and proclaim the gospel...whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. The new testament does not tell us how the apostles baptized, but, church historians say, most likely a candidate stood in a river or public bath

Justin Martyr (100-165) offered a bare-bones description:"

"the candidate prays and fasts "-
"the church community prays and fasts with him"
"the candidate enters the water"
"the minister asks him the three Trinitarian questions"
"the candidate now is introduced into the assembly"


pg 45"half a century later the writer Tertullian gave a few more details. He talked about an anointing, a signing of the cross and an outstretched hand over the candidate. For those first centuries after Christ, the steps required to become baptized were not taken lightly. Often, they led to martyrdom"

"a candidate needed a sponsor, a member of the Christian community who could vouch for him or her. It was the sponsor who went to the bishop and testified that this was a good person. Then for years the sponsor worked, prayed, and fasted with the protégé until the baptism"

&lt;&gt;

"at that time, the catechumenate (coming from the greek word for instruction) had two parts. The first, a period of spiritual preparation, lasted about three years. The second began at the start of lent and included the routine of prayers, fasting, scrutinies and exorcisms. (daily exorcisms didn't mean the candidate was possessed by the devil. Rather, he or she was in the grip of sin. The exorcisms were designed to help the individual break free)."

"Next the candidate was brought before the bishop and the presbyters (elders), while the sponsor was questioned. If the sponsor could state the candidate had no serious vices - then the bishop wrote the candidates name in the baptismal registry. More than a mere formality, this meant the candidate could be arrested or even killed if the "book of life" fell into the wrong hands"

"it was only gradually that the candidate was permitted to hear the creed or the our father. (and he or she was expected to memorize them and recite them for the bishop and the congreation)."

&lt;&gt;

"after the new Christians emerged from the water and were dried off, they were clothed in linen robes, which they would wear until the following sunday. Each new member of the community would then be handed a lighted candle and given the kiss of peace"

&lt;&gt;
"often it was seen as the final trump card, to be played on one's deathbed, thus assuring a heavenly reward"


"it's important to keep in mind that the doctrine of baptism developed (evolved) over time. It was not easy, for instance, determining what to do with those who seriously sinned after baptism" pg 47

"coupled with that was the role of infant baptism. (rcc) scholars assume that when the 'whole households' were baptized, it included children, even very young ones"

"but again it was the development of the doctrine, such as st. Augustine's description of original sin in the fifth century that eventually made infant baptism predominant. At that point
(read change),
baptism was no longer seen as the beginning of moral life, but (it became viewed) a guarantee of accpetance into heaven after death.

"in the early (dark ages) middle ages when entire tribes in northern Europe were being converted, the whole clan was
baptized if the chief chose to be...by the end of the eighth century, what before had taken weeks (of preparation and process by
non infants) had been greatly abridged. Children received three exorcisms on the sundays before easter, and on holy
saturday;..youngsters were immersed three times."

"the rite was further abridged when the tradition of child or infant receiving communion at baptism fell into disfavor.

"and because baptism was now viewed as essential for acceptance into heaven, the church offered a shorter "emergency"
rite for infants in danger of death. By the beginning of the 11th century, some bishops and councils pointed out that infants
were always in danger of sudden death and began to encourage parents not to wait until holy Saturday ceremony"

&lt;&gt;

FE The Faith Explained (RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican ii).

"baptism is the means devised by Jesus to apply to each individual soul, the atonement which he made on the cross for original sin. (for all sin?). Jesus will
not force his gift upon us, the gift of supernatural life for which he paid. He holds the gift out to us hopefully, but each of us must freely accept
it. We make that acceptance by receiving (willingly) the sacrament of baptism" pg302

"whether it is the passive acceptance of the infant or the explicit acceptance of the adult - when the sacrament is administered the spiritual vacuum
which we call original sin - disappears as God becomes present in the soul" pg 302

"by baptism we are rescued from the spiritual death into which we were plunged by the sin of Adam. In baptism God united our soul to himself.
God's love-- the Holy Spirit -- poured into our soul to fill the spiritual vacuum that was the result of the original sin. As result of this intimate union with god,
our soul was elevated to a new kind of life, a supernatural life, a sharing in god's own life.

From then on it becomes our duty to preserve this divine life.(we call it 'sanctifying grace') within us; not only to preserve it, but to
deepen and intensify it. Pg 62

after baptism the only way we can be separated from God is our own deliberate rejection of God. That happens when in full consciousness
of what we are doing, deliberately and of our free choice we refuse God our obedience in a serious matter. Pg 62 - 63

Click to expand...

In Christ,

Bob

The didache:

Quote...

(You not read it all, just scan down and read what is bolded to emphasize.)

Translated by J.B. Lightfoot. Adapt. and mod. (c) 1990. ATHENA DATA PRODUCTS Uploaded with permission of Gary Bogart Didache 1:1 There are two ways, one of life and one of death, and there is a great difference between the two ways. Didache 1:2 The way of life is this. First of all, thou shalt love the God that made thee; secondly, Thy neighbor as thyself. And all things whatsoever thou wouldst not have befall thyself, neither do thou unto another. Didache 1:3 Now of these words the doctrine is this. Bless them that curse you, and pray for your enemies and fast for them that persecute you; for what thank is it, if ye love them that love you? Do not even the Gentiles the same? But do ye love them that hate you that hate you, and ye shall not have an enemy. Didache 1:4 Abstain thou from fleshly and bodily lusts. If any man give thee a blow on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also, and thou shalt be perfect; If a man impress thee to go with him one mile, go with him twain; if a man take away thy cloak, give him thy coat also; if a man take away from thee that which is thy own, ask it not back, for neither art thou able. Didache 1:5 To every man that asketh of thee give, and ask not back for the Father desireth that gifts be given to all from His own bounties. Blessed is he that giveth according to the commandment; for he is guiltless. Woe to him that receiveth; for, if a man receiveth having need, he is guiltless; but he that hath no need shall give satisfaction why and wherefore he received and being put in confinement he shall be examined concerning the deeds that he hath done, and he shall not come out thence until he hath given back the last farthing. Didache 1:6 Yea, as touching this also it is said; Let thine alms sweat into thine hands, until thou have learnt to whom to give. Didache 2:1 And this is the second commandment of the teaching. Didache 2:2 Thou shalt do no murder, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not corrupt boys, thou shalt not commit fornication, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not deal in magic, thou shalt do no sorcery, thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born, thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods, Didache 2:3 thou shalt not perjure thyself, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not speak evil, thou shalt not cherish a grudge, Didache 2:4 thou shalt not be double-minded nor double-tongued; for the double tongue is a snare of death. Didache 2:5 Thy word shall not be false or empty, but fulfilled by action. Didache 2:6 Thou shalt not be avaricious nor a plunderer nor a hypocrite nor ill-tempered nor proud. Thou shalt not entertain an evil design against thy neighbor. Didache 2:7 Thou shalt not hate any man but some thou shalt reprove, and for others thou shalt pray, and others thou shalt love more than thy life. Didache 3:1 My child, flee from every evil and everything that resembleth it. Didache 3:2 Be not angry, for anger leadeth to murder, nor jealous nor contentious nor wrathful; for of all these things murders are engendered. Didache 3:3 My child, be not lustful, for lust leadeth to fornication, neither foul-speaking neither with uplifted eyes; for of all these things adulteries are engendered. Didache 3:4 My child, be no dealer in omens, since it leads to idolatry, nor an enchanter nor an astrologer nor a magician, neither be willing to look at them; for from all these things idolatry is engendered. Didache 3:5 My child, be not a liar, since lying leads to theft, neither avaricious neither vainglorious; for from all these things thefts are engendered. Didache 3:6 My child, be not a murmurer, since it leadeth to blasphemy, neither self-willed neither a thinker of evil thoughts; for from all these things blasphemies are engendered. Didache 3:7 But be meek, since the meek shall inherit the earth. Didache 3:8 Be long-suffering and pitiful and guileless and quiet and kindly and always fearing the words which thou hast heard. Didache 3:9 Thou shalt not exalt thyself, neither shalt thou admit boldness into thy soul. Thy soul shall not cleave together with the lofty, but with the righteous and humble shalt thou walk. Didache 3:10 The accidents that befall thee thou shalt receive as good, knowing that nothing is done without God. Didache 4:1 My child, thou shalt remember him that speaketh unto thee the word of God night and day, and shalt honor him as the Lord; for whencesoever the Lordship speaketh, there is the Lord. Didache 4:2 Moreover thou shalt seek out day by day the persons of the saints, that thou mayest find rest in their words. Didache 4:3 Thou shalt not make a schism, but thou shalt pacify them that contend; thou shalt judge righteously, thou shalt not make a difference in a person to reprove him for transgressions. Didache 4:4 Thou shalt not doubt whether a thing shall be or not be. Didache 4:5 Be not thou found holding out thy hands to receive, but drawing them in as to giving. Didache 4:6 If thou hast ought passing through thy hands, thou shalt give a ransom for thy sins. Didache 4:7 Thou shalt not hesitate to give, neither shalt thou murmur when giving; for thou shalt know who is the good paymaster of thy reward. Didache 4:8 Thou shalt not turn away from him that is in want, but shalt make thy brother partaker in all things, and shalt not say that anything is thy own. For if ye are fellow-partakers in that which is imperishable, how much rather in the things which are perishable? Didache 4:9 Thou shalt not withhold thy hand from thy son or from thy daughter, but from their youth thou shalt teach them the fear of God. Didache 4:10 Thou shalt not command thy bondservant or thine handmaid in thy bitterness who trust in the same God as thyself, lest haply they should cease to fear the God who is over both of you; for He cometh, not to call men with respect of persons, but He cometh to those whom the Spirit hath prepared. Didache 4:11 But ye, servants, shall be subject unto your masters, as to a type of God, in shame and fear. Didache 4:12 Thou shalt hate all hypocrisy, and everything that is not pleasing to the Lord. Didache 4:13 Thou shalt never forsake the commandments of the Lord but shalt keep those things which thou hast received, neither adding to them nor taking away from them. Didache 4:14 In church thou shalt confess thy transgressions, and shalt not betake thyself to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. Didache 5:1 But the way of death is this. First of all, it is evil and full of a curse; murders, adulteries, lusts, fornications, thefts, idolatries, magical arts, witchcrafts, plunderings, false witnessings, hypocrisies, doubleness of heart, treachery, pride, malice, stubbornness, covetousness, foul--speaking, jealousy, boldness, exaltation, boastfulness; Didache 5:2 persecutors of good men, hating truth, loving a lie, not perceiving the reward of righteousness, not cleaving to the good nor to righteous judgment, wakeful not for that which is good but for that which is evil-from whom gentleness and forbearance stand aloof; loving vain things, pursuing a recompense, not pitying the poor man, not toiling for him that is oppressed with toil, not recognizing Him that made them, murderers of children, corrupters of the creatures of God, turning away from him that is in want, oppressing him that is afflicted, advocates of the wealthy, unjust judges of the poor, altogether sinful. May ye be delivered, my children, from all these things. Didache 6:1 See lest any man lead you astray from this way of righteousness, for he teacheth thee apart from God. Didache 6:2 For if thou art able to bear the whole yoke of the Lord, thou shalt be perfect; but if thou art not able, do that which thou art able. Didache 6:3 But concerning eating, bear that which thou art able; yet abstain by all means from meat sacrificed to idols; for it is the worship of dead gods. Didache 7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize. Having first recited all these things, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living (running) water. Didache 7:2 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water; and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm. Didache 7:3 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Didache 7:4 But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able; and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before. Didache 8:1 And let not your fastings be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and the fifth day of the week; but do ye keep your fast on the fourth and on the preparation (the sixth) day. Didache 8:2 Neither pray ye as the hypocrites, but as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, thus pray ye: Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done, as in heaven, so also on earth; give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our debt, as we forgive our debtors; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one; for Thine is the power and the glory for ever and ever. Didache 8:3 Three times in the day pray ye so. Didache 9:1 But as touching the eucharistic thanksgiving give ye thanks thus. Didache 9:2 First, as regards the cup: We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the holy vine of Thy son David, which Thou madest known unto us through Thy Son Jesus; Thine is the glory for ever and ever. Didache 9:3 Then as regarding the broken bread: We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the life and knowledge which Thou didst make known unto us through Thy Son Jesus; Thine is the glory for ever and ever. Didache 9:4 As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and being gathered together became one, so may Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom; for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever and ever. Didache 9:5 But let no one eat or drink of this eucharistic thanksgiving, but they that have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord hath said: Give not that which is holy to the dogs. Didache 10:1 And after ye are satisfied thus give ye thanks: Didache 10:2 We give Thee thanks, Holy Father, for Thy holy name, which Thou hast made to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality, which Thou hast made known unto us through Thy Son Jesus; Thine is the glory for ever and ever. Didache 10:3 Thou, Almighty Master, didst create all things for Thy name's sake, and didst give food and drink unto men for enjoyment, that they might render thanks to Thee; but didst bestow upon us spiritual food and drink and eternal life through Thy Son. Didache 10:4 Before all things we give Thee thanks that Thou art powerful; Thine is the glory for ever and ever. Didache 10:5 Remember, Lord, Thy Church to deliver it from all evil and to perfect it in Thy love; and gather it together from the four winds-- even the Church which has been sanctified-- into Thy kingdom which Thou hast prepared for it; for Thine is the power and the glory for ever and ever. Didache 10:6 May grace come and may this world pass away. Hosanna to the God of David. If any man is holy, let him come; if any man is not, let him repent. Maran Atha. Amen. Didache 10:7 But permit the prophets to offer thanksgiving as much as they desire. Didache 11:1 Whosoever therefore shall come and teach you all these things that have been said before, receive him; Didache 11:2 but if the teacher himself be perverted and teach a different doctrine to the destruction thereof, hear him not; but if to the increase of righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord. Didache 11:3 But concerning the apostles and prophets, so do ye according to the ordinance of the Gospel. Didache 11:4 Let every apostle, when he cometh to you, be received as the Lord; Didache 11:5 but he shall not abide more than a single day, or if there be need, a second likewise; but if he abide three days, he is a false prophet. Didache 11:6 And when he departeth let the apostle receive nothing save bread, until he findeth shelter; but if he ask money, he is a false prophet. Didache 11:7 And any prophet speaking in the Spirit ye shall not try neither discern; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. Didache 11:8 Yet not every one that speaketh in the Spirit is a prophet, but only if he have the ways of the Lord. From his ways therefore the false prophet and the prophet shall be recognized. Didache 11:9 And no prophet when he ordereth a table in the Spirit shall eat of it; otherwise he is a false prophet. Didache 11:10 And every prophet teaching the truth, if he doeth not what he teacheth, is a false prophet. Didache 11:11 And every prophet approved and found true, if he doeth ought as an outward mystery typical of the Church, and yet teacheth you not to do all that he himself doeth, shall not be judged before you; he hath his judgment in the presence of God; for in like manner also did the prophets of old time. Didache 11:12 And whosoever shall say in the Spirit, Give me silver or anything else, ye shall not listen to him; but if he tell you to give on behalf of others that are in want, let no man judge him. Didache 12:1 But let every one that cometh in the name of the Lord be received; and then when ye have tested him ye shall know him, for ye shall have understanding on the right hand and on the left. Didache 12:2 If the comer is a traveler, assist him, so far as ye are able; but he shall not stay with you more than two or three days, if it be necessary. Didache 12:3 But if he wishes to settle with you, being a craftsman, let him work for and eat his bread. Didache 12:4 But if he has no craft, according to your wisdom provide how he shall live as a Christian among you, but not in idleness. Didache 12:5 If he will not do this, he is trafficking upon Christ. Beware of such men. Didache 13:1 But every time prophet desiring to settle among you is worthy of his food. Didache 13:2 In like manner a true teacher is also worthy, like the workman, of his food. Didache 13:3 Every firstfruit then of the produce of the wine-vat and of the threshing-floor, of thy oxen and of thy sheep, thou shalt take and give as the firstfruit to the prophets; for they are your chief-priests. Didache 13:4 But if ye have not a prophet, give them to the poor. Didache 13:5 If thou makest bread, take the firstfruit and give according to the commandment. Didache 13:6 In like manner, when thou openest a jar of wine or of oil, take the firstfruit and give to the prophets; Didache 13:7 yea and of money and raiment and every possession take the firstfruit, as shall seem good to thee, and give according to the commandment. Didache 14:1 And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. Didache 14:2 And let no man, having his dispute with his fellow, join your assembly until they have been reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be defiled; Didache 14:3 for this sacrifice it is that was spoken of by the Lord; In every place and at every time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I ama a great king, saith the Lord, and My name is wonderful among the nations. Didache 15:1 Appoint for yourselves therefore bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men who are meek and not lovers of money, and true and approved; for unto you they also perform the service of the prophets and teachers. Didache 15:2 Therefore despise them not; for they are your honorable men along with the prophets and teachers. Didache 15:3 And reprove one another, not in anger but in peace, as ye find in the Gospel; and let no one speak to any that has gone wrong towards his neighbor, neither let him hear a word from you, until he repent. Didache 15:4 But your prayers and your almsgiving and all your deeds so do ye as ye find it in the Gospel of our Lord. Didache 16:1 Be watchful for your life; let your lamps not be quenched and your loins not ungirdled, but be ye ready; for ye know not the hour the hour in which our Lord cometh. Didache 16:2 And ye shall gather yourselves together frequently, seeking what is fitting for your souls; for the whole time of your faith shall not profit you, if ye be not perfected at the last season. Didache 16:3 For in the last days the false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate. Didache 16:4 For as lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate one another and shall persecute and betray. And then the world-deceiver shall appear as a son of God; and shall work signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unholy things, which have never been since the world began. Didache 16:5 Then all created mankind shall come to the fire of testing, and many shall be offended and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved by the Curse Himself. Didache 16:6 And then shall the signs of the truth appear; first a sign of a rift in the heaven, then a sign of a voice of a trumpet, and thirdly a resurrection of the dead; Didache 16:7 yet not of all, but as it was said The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Didache 16:8 Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven. .

(bolding emphasis mine)

Unquote...

The didache has been dated to as early as A.D. 70, which places it within the apostolic era. And as that document that was in contention to be included in the New Testament, but was not through the authority of church councils who were convened to determine the canon of scripture.

For what it is worth...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

Didache 7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize. Having first recited all these things, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living (running) water.

Didache 7:2 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water; and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.

Didache 7:3 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Didache 7:4 But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able; and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.


Notice that the "normal" mode was immersion and also notice that in "all modes" the person is to fast BEFORE baptism. This shows that baptism was not only "normally" and "most commonly" by immersion but that in all cases (even where there was no large amount of running water) it was done by those with choice and cognition capable of choosing the spiritual discipline of fasting.

It is a carry over the same practice of the Jews as in the case of John the baptizer. No question - this was "Believers" and it was full water immersion.

In christ,

Bob

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Didache 7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize. Having first recited all these things, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living (running) water.

Didache 7:2 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water; and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.

Didache 7:3 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Didache 7:4 But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able; and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.


Notice that the "normal" mode was immersion and also notice that in "all modes" the person is to fast BEFORE baptism. This shows that baptism was not only "normally" and "most commonly" by immersion but that in all cases (even where there was no large amount of running water) it was done by those with choice and cognition capable of choosing the spiritual discipline of fasting.

Click to expand...

The thrust of my posting this is to show that a pouring on of the water was an acceptable method!

Listen reeeeeeeeeal closely, Bob, as I explain to you: Total immersion is an acceptable method for baptism in the Catholic Church!

And, do the SdA's fast before their baptism? Neither do Catholics today, since that is a devout and pious embellishment not demanded in scripture, is it?

It is a carry over the same practice of the Jews as in the case of John the baptizer. No question - this was "Believers" and it was full water immersion.

Click to expand...

How was Paul baptized in Acts 9:18? Did he get up immediately, go find a river somewhere and got baptized? We read, "He got up and was baptized." I get the feeling he was inside of a dwelling when this happened, with the water of baptism poured over his head!

And likewise for the Jailer and his whole household, including any infants that were there as well!

But what say ye of the didache I posted in my last message, Bob? Did you also notice the formula that is used in baptism?

Or is this evidence that the early church fell into serious error so early in church history?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Lord, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things that I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardship as a pathway to peace;
taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it;
trusting that you will make all things right
if I surrender to Your will;
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.

Dan --

Among my other questions, I intended to ask what
Scripture is used to say that the act of baptism
must be public, but you also bring up another
interesting question: what Scripture says
baptism is a profession of faith? I don't recall
one, but I do nnot know the whole Bible by any
means. I merely know that it says to be baptized
and in whose Name to be baptized.

I could be wrong, but I think that most of the
factors common today are merely tradition,
although there is plenty of biblical evidence to
hold to the use of "living water" for baptizing.

As far as the didache goes, I value it merely for
historical evidence of what was done after the
canonization; for me, it proves no practices either
right or wrong. It does, after all, detail plenty of
error.

The scripture says He went down into the water and that He came up out of the water. OK, but you and I can go down into the street when it's raining (for city folks), or down into the creek - fishin' hole deep or ankle deep (for country boys), and then we would come back up out of the water, and maybe we got all wet or maybe we didn't. If you rely on the terms used in the scripture, you can't prove or disprove Jesus getting dunked.

Click to expand...

Here is an example...

"Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water..." (Acts 8)

Even if Jesus had been immersed (not saying He wasn't), we are not commanded to do so.

[ September 21, 2003, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Chrift ]

Abiyah, by willing submission to baptism, one professes one's faith in the names that are invoked for baptism. So yes it is a profession of one's faith.

It is routinely the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ, who commanded that the Apostles go, make disciples, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The "seal of baptism" is the symbol of one's faith in Jesus.

Originally posted by Abiyah:
...

I could be wrong, but I think that most of the
factors common today are merely tradition,
although there is plenty of biblical evidence to
hold to the use of "living water" for baptizing.

Click to expand...

"Living water," I understand, meant water that is flowing, as in a river or stream, against water that is still, as in a tank.

As far as the didache goes, I value it merely for
historical evidence of what was done after the
canonization; for me, it proves no practices either
right or wrong. It does, after all, detail plenty of
error.

Click to expand...

What "error"?

If this document dates to A.D. 70, within the apostolic era, (some date it no further back than A.D. 140) then it would seem, according to you, that the Church fell into error very early one in church history.

This does not bode well for Christ's promise that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it," don't you think? (Matt. 16:18)

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

"…Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism which saves you now…"

1 Peter 3:20-21

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Abiyah, by willing submission to baptism, one professes one's faith in the names that are invoked for baptism. So yes it is a profession of one's faith.

It is routinely the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ, who commanded that the Apostles go, make disciples, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The "seal of baptism" is the symbol of one's faith in Jesus.

Click to expand...

My friend Yelsew, yes, there is submission, and
yes, it is, by the act, a profession of faith, but so
is salvation. By this concept, every act of faith
would, be necessity, have to be public, but all acts
of faith are not. There remains, as I remember, no
requirement to make baptism public, but doing it
puiblicly is also not condemned.

John's baptism was public. Was the eunoch's? It
only says that the two of them stopped by the
road.

Mr. Putnam --

Yes, that is the meaning of living water.

Yes, I do believe that many fell into grievous error
early on, but our God has promised that there
would always be a faithful people who held on to
Truth. This does not mean that the faithful are
the ones in front, the ones who made the rules.