What Scriptures support baptism by immersion?

[Smoky]

Well, what about:
Col. 2:11-12 (ESV)
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, [12] having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Baptism is equal to circumcision? Amazing.

Not equal to circumcision, but coming in the place of circumcision as the sign of the New Covenant, as circumcision was the sign of the old

 

[Abiyah]

This is the problem! There is No Place in the Bible
which says to stop circumcizing. There is no act
which replaces circumcision. Baptism is not a
substitute for circumcision.

There is no place in the whole Book which says,
"Okay, you guys. You can stop doing what our
God said you should do!"

This is the problem created when certain entities
divided the Book, calling one part "old" and the
other part "new." Then people started errantly
equating the supposed "old" part with something
worn out, finished, dead, used up, of no use
anymore. Then they even equated it with the
old covenant! And they called the supposed
"new testament" the "new covenant," and threw
out the Torah, the Prophets, the instruction, the
foundation!

And they even make and carry little books
called "New Testaments" around, thinking they
have everything they need, especially if they
have added the Psalms!

No wonder the religious world is in such
confusion! They threw away the foundation!

 

[Smoky]

This is the problem! There is No Place in the Bible
which says to stop circumcizing. There is no act
which replaces circumcision. Baptism is not a
substitute for circumcision.

Then consider this:

Galatians 5:2-6 (ESV)
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. [3] I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. [4] You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. [5] For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. [6] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

This is the problem created when certain entities
divided the Book, calling one part "old" and the
other part "new." Then people started errantly
equating the supposed "old" part with something
worn out, finished, dead, used up, of no use
anymore. Then they even equated it with the
old covenant! And they called the supposed
"new testament" the "new covenant," and threw
out the Torah, the Prophets, the instruction, the
foundation!

How are we to interpret these scriptures then?

Hebrews 7:12 (ESV)
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Hebrews 7:17-24 (ESV)
For it is witnessed of him,
"You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek."
[18] On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness
[19] (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.


Hebrews 7:22 (ESV)
This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.


Hebrews 8:6-7 (ESV)
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Hebrews 8:13-9:1 (ESV)
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
[9:1] Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness.

Hebrews 9:15 (ESV)
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

 

[Ray Berrian]

The marking of the flesh of the infant was a ceremony that indicated that the baby was a part of the covenant and of the nation of Israel. You remember, under the Old Covenant any parents that refused to mark their child was exile from the nation of Israel. This was a hard law, but the people obey it.

Under the New Covenant baptism is more than obeying the Lord as to Christian baptism; this ordinance means they have received the sign of the covenant. In Act 16:14-15 seems to say that not only the adult, new Christian received baptism but all of the members of his or her family. This included infants, children and obviously adults. Thus, we read Luke's words inspired by Christ which say, 'And when she {Lydia} was baptized, and her household . . . ' Since she was now the spiritual leader in her home she had a responsibility for the spiritual care of her children. Other passages also speak to this issue, namely, I Corinthians 1:16. My question to the person who believes in immersion is, what did Paul mean by household baptism?

Many sincere Baptists have ingested the idea that Romans chapter six indicates water baptism. At a much closer look you will not find on drop of water in this passage. Paul is speaking about our baptism into the Holy Spirit at the time we are saved. The apostle says in I Corinthians 12:13, 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body . . . ' No great quantities of water can insure our bodily resurrection [Romans 6:5b] when Christ comes for His church. [I Thess. 4:17] But, if we have been baptized into the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, our ultimate salvation is assured.

The Apostle Paul speaks of a baptism for the dead in I Corinthians 15:29 which probably comforted some parents who lost their child when he or she was being catechized and died before that person was baptized. Another situation was if an adult person was saved and died before receiving the ordinance of Christian baptism. It looks like the Christian church had a proxy to stand and be baptized in place of the deceased Christian. This might have been done to ease the hurt of the remaining loved ones. This practice seems to have fallen off somewhere along in Christian history. I don't think any churches including Catholic churches baptize for the dead. Correct me if I am wrong. This, however, does not mean that a person has to be baptized in order to be saved. John 3:16, Acts 2:21 and Acts 16:31 assures all Christians of the fact that as long as we believingly trust in Christ as our Savior, we will be saved by Him.

 

[Ray Berrian]

I do know that if a Cathlic baby dies in the hospital that someone will baptize than still born one.

One of the questions that and elder asked me before accepting me as their pastor was, 'If you were in a hospital or anywhere and a Catholic mother would ask you to baptize her baby, would you do it?'

My answer was, 'Yes, I would because it would offer comfort to the mother who had lost the baby in death.' I also said, 'I think I would consult with my supervising pastor to see what he would advise.'

 

[Ray Berrian]

Abijah,

You said, 'This is the problem created when certain entities divided the Book, calling one part "old" and the other part "new." Then people started errantly equating the supposed "old" part with something worn out, finished, dead, used up, of no use anymore.'

Ray is saying, 'Do you mean where God says that Christ is the Mediator of a better covenant . . . ? [Hebrews 8:6] or where the Lord says, 'For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.' [Hebrews 8:7] Also, Hebrews 8:13 is in conflict with your theory. 'In that He saith, A new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.'

A one covenant theory comes from the theological junk yard of Amillennialists; these are Christians who do not believe in the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth in the future.

 

[Abiyah]

Smoky --

You are going to read those Scriptures through the
"glasses" your beliefs give you, and I am going to
read them through mine. I read what you write and
wonder, "Why can people not see? Why do they
not understand?" I can get frustrated and write
tons of Scripture, give my explanations, and it will
do no good. Therefore, why do it? It is not that I
do not find you a worthy person but that you are
not going to really read what I write.

I plan to see you in eternity. Study my photo and
look me up -- Abiyah is really my name. Then
we can get together and talk about all the things we
were so sure of and how far off-base we were in
these surities.

 

[Abiyah]

Ray --

What is the new covenant? Can you define it
Scripturally? Who are the partakers? What people
of the past have been partakers? How is it related
to the old? How is it related to all the covenants?
How are al the covenants related? Who was the
new covenant given to?

 

[Smoky]

Then
we can get together and talk about all the things we
were so sure of and how far off-base we were in
these surities.

That's probably true, I just try to use the debates as a learning tool; if I'm not corrected then I just assume I'm right. I won't mind seeing how far off base I was in the next world.

 

[Frank]

Smoky:
The baptism of Moses was a figure of the baptism of the new testament. It was an overwhelming by the clouds and the sea. In a burial one is overwhelmed or covered. The element of water is identified as the agent by which one is overwhelmed or baptized. The fact that Israel passed through the Red Sea on dry ground does not change the meaning of baptism as a covering, an overwhelming by the element specified. In the case of new testament baptism, the element is water. One is not overwhelmed or covered when he is sprinkled or poured. However, he is baptized when he is buried, overwhelmed, covered by water. I Pet. 3:21.

 

[Smoky]

The baptism of Moses was a figure of the baptism of the new testament. It was an overwhelming by the clouds and the sea.

But the cloud and the sea didn't even touch the bodies of the Israelites! How could they be overwhealmed by something they didn't even touch? The only ones overwhealmed by water were the Egyptians. The Israelites were sprinkled by rain.

The fact that Israel passed through the Red Sea on dry ground does not change the meaning of baptism as a covering

Would you agree, then, that there are parts of the body that need not be touched by water in order for it to be a baptism?

 

[Ray Berrian]

Abiyah said, Ray --

What is the new covenant? Can you define it
Scripturally? Who are the partakers? What people
of the past have been partakers? How is it related
to the old? How is it related to all the covenants?
How are al the covenants related? Who was the
new covenant given to?

The New Covenant is a distinct from the Old Covenant in that the first was based on Law from God through Moses while Grace also is the handiwork of Almighty God through Jesus Christ. [John 1:17]

The New Covenant of grace is the Lord's agreement between humankind and Himself. This covenant is an eternal one between Christ and all nationalities on the earth, which, of course, includes both Israelite and all Gentile nations.

The Old Covenant was for the most part a covenant between God and the Israelite nation. All who followed the Law and the sacrificial system faithfully were saved by Jehovah Lord by the work of Christ's atonement.

One way to define the New Covenant by Scripture is to turn to II Corinthians 5:17-19 & verse 21. I am sure there are others, but this one is so clear to our understanding.

You asked, 'Who are the partakers?' Anyone who believes in Jesus and His work accomplished on the Cross will be made a 'new creation' in Christ Jesus. This new creation is transformed with such perfection that it only happens once. That's why a Christian returns to the Lord because he or she knows that they have violated so great a work of regeneration, plus guilt and remorse for a sin committed.

Since the Day of Pentecost anyone on this earth can become part of the family of God. This day was the maiden voyage of the church. Christ promised it. [Matt. 16:18] Notice who owns the church. 'I shall/will build My church.'

You said, how is it related to the old covenant?

Hebrews 8:6 says that Christ has a more excellent ministry than Moses; He is a better Mediator, and Christ's New Covenant is established on better promises. The Old Covenant had the Aaronic Priesthood; the New Covenant has our great High Priest, Christ. His New Covenant has a once for all sacrifice-2003 years ago, while the Old system had repeated and daily sacrifices. The first covenant was flawed and imperfect while Christ's sacrifice was perfect because it covers all of our sins. [I Cor. 15:3 & I John 2:2] The Law made nothing perfect [Hebrews 7:19] while grace introduced 'a better hope.' [Hebrews 7:19] This is just the some of His improved covenant of grace.

Some theologian have defined several covenants but the New and Old covenants are the most important to understand to begin this process of understanding. The Covenant of Redemption, Works, Grace, Edenic Covenant, Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Palenstinian, Davidic, The New Covenant for the Church and the New Covenant for Israel.

The one that might interest you most is the Palestinian Covenant. {Deut. 30:1-9} which is in seven particulars and discloses what Jehovah will yet do in regathering, blessing, and restoring Israel to her own and His land.

You said, 'How are all of the covenants related?'

They are related because God is the Author of all human beings. In different eras of time He dealt with people in different ways. Why? I don't think we know, but since He is sovereign He does what pleases only Himself. He owns us by our creation at birth and He desires to be known of us through faith and regeneration and that new relationship which you and I enjoy.

The New Covenant was given to any and every human being. National identification or race have no bearing on His desire to love all of His created human beings. He loves each sinner the same, whether Italian, Jewish, or Gentile. Jesus did not say, 'God so love the Hungarian, but rather God so loved the world . . . ' [John 3:16] The New Covenant was given to all sinners and we were all once sinners.

I am carrying around a human body that needs to be at the dentist's office very soon. Hope this helps answer your questions.

 

[Smoky]

THE BAPTISM OF MOSES

Psalm 77:14-20 (ESV)
You are the God who works wonders;
you have made known your might among the peoples.
[15] You with your arm redeemed your people,
the children of Jacob and Joseph. Selah
[16] When the waters saw you, O God,
when the waters saw you, they were afraid;
indeed, the deep trembled.
[17] The clouds poured out water ;
the skies gave forth thunder;
your arrows flashed on every side.
[18] The crash of your thunder was in the whirlwind;
your lightnings lighted up the world;
the earth trembled and shook.
[19] Your way was through the sea ,
your path through the great waters;
yet your footprints were unseen.
[20] You led your people like a flock .

 

[Frank]

Smokey:
No, the person would not be overwhelmed by the agent of water as per I Pet.3;21. He would not be covered by the specific agent of water. Acts 8:37-39. Baptism requires an overwhelmng or covering by the agent prescribed. Therefore, the failure to be overwhelmed by the agent prescribed would not result in Biblical baptism as presented in the new testament.

 

[Abiyah]

Smoky --

Thank you for your attitude. Ii understand where
you are coming from to use debate as a learning
tool. My husband and I have used this tool in order
to counter the effects of years in a cult, and it
works. We debate one another successfully, but
not all are able to do this without faling into the
trap of anger and name-caling.

I will consider what you have written and perhaps
come back and answer. It wil have to be with a
diferent keyboard and, I hope, with different
Internet access - soon. I dislike this system
strongly.

- - - - - - -

Ray --

You answers are what I expected, and I do not
agree. I did hope, though, to see what your
opinion was as to whom the new covenant
effects and effected.

Re the dentist, I need to go so desperately! I
don't want to!!! I have had some traumatic
dental experiences that keep me away. I even
clean my own teeth!

 

[Ray Berrian]

Abijah,

May I ask this question? Did you take time to look up each of my Scripture references when you read my explanation of said verses?

When you go to a Messianic Christian gathering don't they believe that they are living and worshipping the Lord under the canopy of grace?

 

[Abiyah]

Well, I am going to try this again. I keep getting
knocked of the Internet mid-post, and it saves
nothing. So irritating.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Abijah,

May I ask this question? Did you take time to look up each of my Scripture references when you read my explanation of said verses?

Ray, my friend, it is not as though I have never read
these verses -- in and out of the context of the
discussion of this subject -- time and again. They
are not new to me.

Allow me, please, to take two of the Scriptures you
recommended as proofs. John 1:17. Do you intend
that grace and truth did not exist before Y'shua
came?? This verse does not indicate a dichotomy
of gifts from these persons, as though these things
did not exist without them in a particular time. I
hope you believe that Y'shua is eternal -- always
was, is, and always will be.

The writings and the Prophets show our God's
grace at all times, not just suddenly beginning at
7 - 4 b.c.e. Grace was shown to Israel. Grace was
shown to pagans. Grace was shown to Egypt.

And truth! What can I say? . . .

And with regard to Hebrews 8:6, can you tell me
how the covenant was made better thanthe old?
Most people do not know., or, at least, have not
thought it through.

When you go to a Messianic Christian gathering don't they believe that they are living and worshipping the Lord under the canopy of grace?

See my answer above. Grace was and is.

And how about what people were recipients of the
new covenant? Was Stephen? Was Abraham? Was
Saul? Shadrach? Adam? Lazarus?

 

[Abiyah]

If I have been offensive, I am very sorry. Please
forgive.

 

[Dan Stiles]

Originally posted by Frank:
Smokey:
No, the person would not be overwhelmed by the agent of water as per I Pet.3;21. He would not be covered by the specific agent of water. Acts 8:37-39. Baptism requires an overwhelmng or covering by the agent prescribed. Therefore, the failure to be overwhelmed by the agent prescribed would not result in Biblical baptism as presented in the new testament.

(Italics mine, for emphasis. ds)

OK, Frank, here it is, KJV (1769)

Acts 8:37-39 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Where is the part in this passage of scripture you called on that says "Baptism requires an overwhelming or covering by the agent prescribed."? As much as you want to believe it, "going down into the water" does not require one to be immersed. Now, "going down under the water," that's a different story, but the scripture doesn't say that. I can go down into the water at my favorite fly fishing creek and get nothing wet above the thigh - even if I don't wear waders - and then come back up out of the water. You've got to do better than just cite that verse if you want to convince anyone that what you propose is the only scriptural mode of baptism "presented in the New Testament."

 

[Frank]

Dan:
The word baptizo means to be overwhelmed ore covered as in a burial. Romans 6:3-5. Jesus was covered in a tomb. He was overwhelmed by it. He was not buried by a sprinkling or pouring of dirt or stone, but by a covering or overwhelming. When one examines I Peter 3:20,21 and Acts 8:36-39, he concludes the Eunoch was covered by or overwhelmed by the agent of water. This would also constitute the likeness of Jesus' burial. Romans 6:3-5. Sprinkling does not require both parties to go down into the water. This is the case because they are not baptizo as depicted in the new testament.
I would like for you to show me where by the word for sprinkling is used in reference to baptism or where one is sprinkled by example in the new testament conversions.