Gifts of the Spirit have ceased?????????

I think the problem here is that we are trying to make the "gifts" something miraculous and in this age they are not. The supernatural gifts were how the foundation of the church was built and then after the church was well established they passed away. This is proved by the fact that NNE can duplicate today what was done then. The miracle gifts were given to very few in the early church. The active gifts today are more like special abilities or desires. We all know people who always seem willing and show up when help is needed. They have a deep desire and better yet they follow through, That is the gift of "helps". Have you ever heard a preacher who just made you want to stand up and shout amen or one who you grab on to every word because you learn so much from what they say? these are teaching and preaching gifts. Remember the gifts are in us and guide us and are up to us to use. I heard John M. say that we are a snowflake when it comes to gifts, no two exactly alike, each with a measure and mixure of gifts.

DHK, We actually disagree some (for once) as Biblically I don't see reason to say any gifts but Miracles, healing, tongues and interpretations are gone.

In Christ,
Brian

[ May 09, 2002, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

 

I received the gift of the Holy Spirit the moment I believed.

~Lorelei

 

My previous post was to show that at least one time or another in my life, I exhibited those gifts that are thought to be gone. And while the gift of healing and tongues were temporary - and I have not had repeated experiences with - I have had so with the gift of knowledge and of prophecy - I am very careful in what I call prophecy - Unless God 2x4's me upside the head; I dont call it prophecy. I think for all 20+ years of my Christian life; I have made only 4 prophecies. Thats the problem with the "sign" gifts they arent permanent - They leave their mark - but a prophet can make a mistake, and thus be called a false prophet; even though he didnt make a prophecy. People are that determined to quench the power of God - even Christians - and Satan is more then willing to lend us a helping hand to discredit and enfeeble ourselves.

But lets continue on to the basis of the argument the extinguishing of the gifts.

Lets pop on over to the next chapter in 1Cor

1Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

I look at this verse and the previous verses and again it suggests to me that Love is the foundation, the source of all the spiritual gifts. Obviously that is true because God is love, but the very fact that God is referred to in this verse by His aspect of love, leads me to conclude that the cessationists, are not only cessationists of the gifts, but of God!

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Is anyone foolish enough to claim that as of know ALL men know and understand the Word of God in its entirety and perfectly is either a madman - low in his/her intelligence, or a deciever of Satan

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

We are not perfect now - the perfect is NOT NOW - The perfect is when WHOM shall appear? That is the person of Jesus - Jehovah God!

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

One has to be careful when stating that ANYthing has ceased (or valueless as those anti-OT people do); because every SINGLE verse, every jot and tittle is applicable - throughout the reaches of time. The wave offering its still valid - the sacrifices are STILL valid, and being fulfilled BY CHRIST!

We are not under the law but under grace - but in no way does that mean that the law is sinful - teh law is holy - despite the fact that it brings death

 

S, two quick points. Prophecy is from a greek word that means ("to speak before") not before something happens but "in Front of". Please get that straight.

2nd, No place in Scripture does it say that gifts come and go. Once God gives a spiritual gift it is yours forever to use whenever you want. You seem to not have read my other posts at all for you have not refuted any points I have made.

You may have experienced a miracle but not the spiritual gifts. We are to desire to use our spiritual gifts, always with a base of love(charity).

S, I plead with you to at least acknolwedge what I and others have said, just so I know you are reading our posts

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

This ought to be interesting. I wonder how long we will have to wait.

 

Check the scripture in Acts 19:3-6. The baptism of John didn't consist of the Holy Ghost because Jesus was not baptised. When Jesus died he promied that we would have a comforter with us always and that comforter is the Holy Ghost.
But I do believe that the Gifts of the Spirit are not present to this day.

I do not believe that speaking in tonques or prophesing is of the Lord. We don't need that for today it was needed back in the days of the apostles...not for today...

[ May 09, 2002, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Promise ]

 

Acts 10:44

And that was without an apostle laying hands on them to boot....

[ May 09, 2002, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

Here is a helpful link that discusses the spiritual gifts as set forth in 1Cor.12:8-10.
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/areview.htm

The gift of helps is not included in that list, only in the list at the end of the chapter. I have quoted two paragraphs from Albert Barnes on the words "helps" and "governments." They give quite a bit of useful information. It is my view that these gifts, mentioned in 1Cor.12, were supernatural gifts given for a specific purpose, time, and reason. They are not for today. Consider for example the gift of wisdom mentioned in verse eight (word of wisdom). Many today claim to have that one. But the Bible says clearly in James 1:5

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
---God gives wisdom to those that ask. We do not need a supernatural spiritual gift to have wisdom. We have the Word of God, the Spirit of God, and in prayer may ask our Father, who will give to us freely wisdom.

"While Oral and Richard Roberts are still claiming to have "words of wisdom" from the Lord, Hinn makes similar false claims for what he calls "words of knowledge." Are the "words of knowledge" Hinn gives 100 percent accurate? No, and he admits they are not. But here is his poor explanation given in his own words during his TBN program that aired February 23, 1992: "Man, I remember when God would give me words of knowledge back when I began in this ministry but I missed nine out of ten. Of course, nobody knew it except me." Seeking to excuse this terrible failure, Hinn said: "We are not infallible. When you give a prophecy, sometimes you can be way off. You have to be open enough to say, 'I blew it.'""
http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/Foundation/fbcwhere.htm

"Helps. antilhqeiV. This word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament.
It is derived from antilambanw, and denotes, properly, aid, assistance, help; and then those who render aid, assistance, or help; helpers. Who they were, is not known. They might have been those to whom was entrusted the care of the poor, and the sick, and strangers, widows, and orphans, etc.;
i.e., those who performed the office of deacons. Or they may have been those who attended on the apostles to aid them in their work, such as Paul refers to in Ro 16:3, "Greet Priscilla, and Aquila, my helper" in Christ Jesus;" and in Ro 16:9, "Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ." Cmt. on Ro 16:3. It is not possible, perhaps, to determine a precise meaning of the word, or the nature of the office which they discharged; but the word means, in general, those who in any way aided or rendered assistance in the church, and may refer to the temporal affairs of the church, to the care of the poor, the distribution of charity and alms, or to the instruction of the ignorant, or to aid rendered directly to the apostles. There is no evidence that it refers to a distinct and permanent office in the church; but may refer to aid rendered by any class in any way. Probably many persons were profitably and usefully employed in various ways as aids in promoting the temporal or spiritual welfare of the church."

"Governments. kubernhseiV. This word is derived from kubernaw, to govern; and is usually applied to the government or steering of a ship. The word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, though the word kubernhthV (governor) occurs in Ac 27:11, rendered "master," and in Re 18:17, rendered "ship-master." It is not easy to determine what particular office or function is here intended. Doddridge, in accordance with Amyraut, supposes that distinct offices may not be here referred to, but that the same persons may be denoted in these expressions as being distinguished in various ways; that is, that the same persons were called "helpers" in reference to their skill in aiding those who were in distress, and "governments" in regard to their talent for doing business, and their ability in presiding in counsels for deliberation, and in directing the affairs of the church. There is no reason to think that the terms here used referred to permanent and established ranks and orders in the ministry and in the church; or in permanent offices which were to continue to all times as an essential part of its organization. It is certain that the "order" of apostles has ceased, and also the "order" of miracles, and the "order" of healings, and of diversity of tongues. And it is certain that in the use of these terms of office, the apostle does not affirm that they would be permanent, and essential to the very existence of the church; and from the passage before us, therefore, it cannot be argued that there was to be an order of men in the church who were to be called helps, or governments. The truth probably was, that the circumstances of the primitive churches required the aid of many persons in
various capacities which might not be needful or proper in other times and circumstances. Whether, therefore, this is to be regarded as a permanent arrangement that there should be "governments" in the church, or an order of men entrusted with the sole office of governing, is to be learned not from
this passage, but from other parts of the New Testament. Lightfoot contends, that the word which is here used and translated "governments" does not refer to the power of ruling, but to a person endued with a deep and comprehensive mind, one who is wise and prudent; and in this view Mosheim, Macknight, and Bishop Horsley coincide. Calvin refers it to the elders, to whom the exercise of discipline was entrusted. Grotius understands it of the pastors, (Eph 4:1,) or of the elders who presided over particular churches, Ro 12:8. Locke supposes that they were the same as those who had the power of discerning spirits. The simple idea, however, is that of ruling, or exercising government; but whether this refers to a permanent office, or to the fact that some were specially qualified by their wisdom and prudence, and in virtue of this usually regulated or directed the affairs of the church by giving council, etc., or whether they were selected and appointed for this purpose for a time; or whether it refers to the same persons who might also have exercised other functions, and this in addition, cannot be determined from the passage before us. All that is clear is, that there were those who administered government in the church. But the passage does not determine the form, or manner; nor does it prove--whatever may be true--that such an office was to be permanent in the church." (Barnes)
DHK

 

Hi DHK, Thanks for the "wisdom" of that last post - sorry I couldn't resist

The gift of wisdom, if it exists, would be an ability to apply scripture to daily living. What the Roberts and 700 club people do is silly and is not what the gift would be. Knowledge would be to understand scripture and wisdom to apply it. Remember, I am not saying that it is miraculous, as no miraculous gifts exist anymore. But where I think the problem comes is that some still think gifts should be like that. I think of gifts as abilities we have that the Holy Spirit builds in us, making use of our natural talents that we already have. This makes sure that the church has every aspect it needs to be a full body. the Bible clearly teaches that the "church" or a gathering of believers, needs to have a variety of body parts to be whole. The gifts are given to ensure each local gathering has the needed parts. It is not the big deal others make it and in no way should come between believers but the main problem happens when people claim to heal and tell the future and those type of things.

DHK, I will continue to look over your post and go to the site. Thanks again for your insight and love for our Lord,
Brian

[ May 10, 2002, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

 

(hey, Brian--a couple of people have already offered verses that show where they received the Holy Ghost as soon as they believed....)

 

Brian, look at the top of this page.

And then check your e-mail.

[ May 10, 2002, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

Brian, Brian, Brian.

Perhaps you should go back and read those verses yourself?

Cornelius was a just man, who believed in God--but nowhere does it say that he believed in Jesus. IN FACT, he was warned from God by an angel to hear the words that Peter was preaching (v. 22).

We had this discussion before, and we both agreed that Peter was sent to preach Jesus to Cornelius.

Is the next thing you're gonna tell me is that all the Jews that believed in God were saved, too? Although they denied Christ?....

[ May 10, 2002, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

Briguy - YOU stated that the gifts no longer exist IN this age

I stated examples of me using some of those gifts.

You then stated that the gifts are permanent

To this I agree - but I also suggest that God imparts temporary gifts as well; as needed to fit the situation. Since my prayers and such have not healed since that one instance

Briguuy's post ------------------------------------
DHK, We actually disagree some (for once) as Biblically I don't see reason to say any gifts but Miracles, healing, tongues and interpretations are gone.
---------------------------------------------------

I dont think Ive done any miracles - but that one time I healed - and I clearly spoke in tongues (earthly), and I intrepreted an unknown tongue.

But you argue that prophesy, and apostle still exists - and prophesy was almost always mentioned in the same bracket as tongues.

A prophet is two-fold - forthtelling AND foretelling - If a prophet does not do both - He is not a prophet

The gifts of the Spirit are not natural extensions of our human abilities; but rather the Spirit taking hold of our lives - knowing where we are weak and strong, and deciding where we need to grow and gifting us in that area.

If the gifts of the Spirit were natural extensions of human abilities - I would never had experienced tongues - prophecy - and I would just be focussing on administration, (inspiration) - oh I am so good at getting other people organized - but I do not have the gift of administration mainly because I do not have the patience needed to deal with people who do not follow through on their duties.

You argue that in each case I experienced a limited miracle - but since I have experienced limited miracles in various fields, I suggest that perhaps your understanding of the gifts, is in fact flawed, and you have not refuted MY statement that the gifts ARE NOT to expire until Christ comes again.

I just read that I get to tell the Holy Spirit to wake up, get off its duffer, and start working. Of course thats IF you believe the gifts are directly powered by the Spirit; which I do. I also believe that sin encumbers the operation of our gifts; and while the Spirit may be under our control it is not up to us to dictate to God "oh btw God - this person you MUST heal, or God I need and you WILL provide me with a prophesy"

Thats what I interpret as you saying Briguy - I am probably wrong - but thats just what Im getting as an impression

People have also divided the gifts into several categories - sign gifts - foundation gifts - "support" gifts - so many categories I forget them all - that they have forgotten that there is only the one category of gift and that is of the Spirit - and that they will all pass or stay at the same time.

I posted Hebrew and Greek prophet below

HEBREW
05030 aybn nabiy? naw-bee?
from 05012; TWOT-1277a; n m
AV-prophet 312, prophecy 1, them that prophesy 1, prophet + 0376 1, variant 1; 316

1) spokesman, speaker, prophet
1a) prophet
1b) false prophet
1c) heathen prophet

GREEK

4396 profhthv prophetes prof-ay?-tace
from a compound of 4253 and 5346; TDNT-6:781,952; n m
AV-prophet 149; 149
1) in Greek writings, an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things
2) one who, moved by the Spirit of God and hence his organ or spokesman, solemnly declares to men what he has received by inspiration, especially concerning future events, and in particular such as relate to the cause and kingdom of God and to human salvation
2a) the OT prophets, having foretold the kingdom, deeds and death, of Jesus the Messiah.
2b) of John the Baptist, the herald of Jesus the Messiah
2c) of the illustrious prophet, the Jews expected before the advent of the Messiah
2d) the Messiah
2e) of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God?s authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men
2f) of prophets that appeared in the apostolic age among Christians
2f1) they are associated with the apostles
2f2) they discerned and did what is best for the Christian cause, foretelling certain future events. (#Ac 11:27)
2f3) in the religious assemblies of the Christians, they were moved by the Holy Spirit to speak, having power to instruct, comfort, encourage, rebuke, convict, and stimulate, their hearers
3) a poet (because poets were believed to sing under divine inspiration) 3a) of Epimenides (#Tit 1:12)

Im trying to get your statement about the greek words so im ignoring Hebrew atm

Actually its a greek preposition - Ill post all the roots - and it doesnt mean EXACTLY what you say it does

4253 pro pro pro
a primary preposition; TDNT-6:683,935; prep
AV-before 44, above 2, above ... ago 1, or ever 1; 48
1) before
5346 fhmi phemi fay-mee?
properly, the same as the base of 5457 and 5316; ; v AV-say 57, affirm 1; 58
1) to make known one?s thoughts, to declare
2) to say

5457 fwv phos foce
from an obsolete phao (to shine or make manifest, especially by rays, cf 5316, 5346); TDNT-9:310,1293; n n
AV-light 68, fire 2; 70
1) light
1a) the light
1a1) emitted by a lamp
1a2) a heavenly light such as surrounds angels when they appear on earth
1b) anything emitting light
1b1) a star
1b2) fire because it is light and sheds light
1b3) a lamp or torch
1c) light, i.e brightness
1c1) of a lamp
2) metaph.
2a) God is light because light has the extremely delicate, subtle, pure, brilliant quality
2b) of truth and its knowledge, together with the spiritual purity associated with it
2c) that which is exposed to the view of all, openly, publicly
2d) reason, mind
2d1) the power of understanding esp. moral and spiritual truth
5316 fainw phaino fah?-ee-no
prolongation for the base of 5457; TDNT-9:1,1244; v
AV-appear 17, shine 10, be seen 2, seem 1, think 1; 31
1) to bring forth into the light, cause to shine, shed light
2) shine
2a) to shine, be bright or resplendent
2b) to become evident, to be brought forth into the light, come to view, appear
2b1) of growing vegetation, to come to light
2b2) to appear, be seen
2b3) exposed to view
2c) to meet the eyes, strike the sight, become clear or manifest
2c1) to be seen, appear
2d) to appear to the mind, seem to one?s judgment or opinion

 

Oneness, you set yourself up for this. act 8:16 "for He had not yet fallen on any of them, because they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." I guess you just wanted to call attention to the fact that baptism in Jesus name is really an invalid baptism.

 

Oneness,

Do you so quickly forget our conversations? I have answered this question and more, yet you refuse to listen. Re-read over these posts and read the ones you may have missed. There is a world of information in these threads, it might do you good to actually pay attention to them. Especially since the Word of God is used to show you the Truth.

Tongues as the evidence is not Biblical

Tongues as evidence

Tongues as.....

What are tongues

Why I am a cessationist

Charsmatic Theology

To continue conversations on gifts in the spirit

Pentecostalism is the Worst

~Lorelei