Gifts of the Spirit have ceased?????????

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Don:
Brian, that is so wrong!!!

Did you just admit to us that your church is violating scripture?!?

I gave you the scripture where it specificially says if you don't have an interpreter, then be silent.

What you're telling me is: Everyone else was doing it, even though it goes against scripture, so it's a-okay; and/or You don't care what scripture says about the proper use of the gift of tongues.

Next you're gonna tell me that you're about to jump off a cliff because everyone else in your church is doing it, aren't you?

1 Cor 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

That is plain Scripture isnt it? I cant argue with that and I have often wondered the same thing. But when I pray, I pray out loud and When I praise God I praise God out loud, and when I was praising God I spoke in tongues.

So let me ask you this in that same chapter Paul said that the women should keep silent in the Church. Has a Women ever spoke in your church? I would even go as far as saying that they have. So would you say that the women in your church went directly against scripture or would you say there is probably a little bit more history behind the books of Corinthians that we need to be aware of?

 

[Don]

Actually, the thing about women being silent...is answered in the very next verse: v.35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

This is further explained by the very same author (Paul) over in 1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

We see more evidence of what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 11, where Paul rebuked the women of Corinth for exercising their newfound liberty in Christ to the point that they were disrespecting the men.

If the women in our church speak, it's to say "Amen," or to teach Sunday School to the little ones...but not to teach or usurp authority from the men....

And if I'm right, Brian, then you need to ask your pastor why he's allowing your church to violate scripture...I'm quite curious as to his response....

[ May 13, 2002, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[susanpet]

Oneness, when you speak in an unknown tonque, how do you know that you are actually talking to God? I don't want to sound disrespectful, but the devil has counterfeits, you know. I am just curious to how you know the difference. I have seen pagan worship on TV speak in tonques.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by susanpet:
Oneness, when you speak in an unknown tonque, how do you know that you are actually talking to God? I don't want to sound disrespectful, but the devil has counterfeits, you know. I am just curious to how you know the difference. I have seen pagan worship on TV speak in tonques.

Susan when you are praising God from your heart the Devil Cant counterfit that. Besides when God does it there is a Peace that Follows it. And a Joy unspeakable.

God Bless

 

[Don]

Any thoughts, Brian, about my last post?

Have you asked your pastor yet? Or at least one of the deacons?

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Don:
Any thoughts, Brian, about my last post?

Have you asked your pastor yet? Or at least one of the deacons?

Don, He could probably answer that better than I could tell you what he says. If you want why dont you email him and let him know about the discussion we are haveing his email address is

Kmarshburn@hotmail.com

or if you would like to call him the number to the church is 336-746-6010

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Don:

1 Cor 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.[/QB]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let me see if I can try to explain something here.

The Apostle Paul was trying to explain to the "young Church" about the use of the "gift of tongues." It's evident that they did not know how to use the gift properly.

The "gift of tongues" is used with the "gift of interpretation of tongues." When a message from goes forth and no one gives the interpretation, Paul is saying not to hold up the service by keep on speaking in tongues if the interpretation is not given. Someone may have the interpretation but may be hesitant in giving the message.

Example: My former Pastor was at the Conference and a message, in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance, went forth and he thought he had the interpretation, but being new for this to happen to him, he didn't give it. Then someone did give the interpretation and it was exactly the same that God had given my Pastor.

So, what Paul was trying to teach was the use of the "gifts" properly. 1 Cor 14:39-40) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

He didn't say not to speak in tongues! If there had been problems with the use of the other gifts, I' sure he would have corrected Corinth about that matter also.

All of the gifts were given to The Church to be used correctly.

Let me ask, are the "Gifts" being used in the church world today...correctly?

 

[susanpet]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by susanpet:
Oneness, when you speak in an unknown tonque, how do you know that you are actually talking to God? I don't want to sound disrespectful, but the devil has counterfeits, you know. I am just curious to how you know the difference. I have seen pagan worship on TV speak in tonques.

Susan when you are praising God from your heart the Devil Cant counterfit that. Besides when God does it there is a Peace that Follows it. And a Joy unspeakable.

God Bless</font>[/QUOTE]I still do not want to come across as disrespectful or anything, but the devil does appear in "sheeps clothing" and as an angel of light to deceive people. I probably wouldn't be so pregidice(if that's how you spell it), if I hadn't had so many bad experiences with this doctrine. From all the people I know who speak in tonques, they are rude and self-righteous. When I walk by one in the grocery store and smile they quickly turn their head and avoid me as if I had the plague or something. They do not come across to me as having the love of Christ dwelling in them. Thank God Jesus is not that way. And no one can see in my soul and tell me I don't have the spirit of God living inside.
And if tonques are for today, do you also pick up serpents and drink poison? That's in there also, isn't it?
We are suppose to edify the church. We are suppose to tell of Jesus and His willingness to save, not going around putting everybody down because we don't have this or that gift. God is the issuer of gifts. And tongues is listed as the LEAST gift in the Bible.
But I am not saying you don't have this gift or anything. Just that all people are not expected to have it. There are many gifts and they all should come together for the edifying of the church.
God bless
Susan

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by susanpet:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by susanpet:
Oneness, when you speak in an unknown tonque, how do you know that you are actually talking to God? I don't want to sound disrespectful, but the devil has counterfeits, you know. I am just curious to how you know the difference. I have seen pagan worship on TV speak in tonques.

Susan when you are praising God from your heart the Devil Cant counterfit that. Besides when God does it there is a Peace that Follows it. And a Joy unspeakable.

God Bless</font>[/QUOTE]I still do not want to come across as disrespectful or anything, but the devil does appear in "sheeps clothing" and as an angel of light to deceive people. I probably wouldn't be so pregidice(if that's how you spell it), if I hadn't had so many bad experiences with this doctrine. From all the people I know who speak in tonques, they are rude and self-righteous. When I walk by one in the grocery store and smile they quickly turn their head and avoid me as if I had the plague or something. They do not come across to me as having the love of Christ dwelling in them. Thank God Jesus is not that way. And no one can see in my soul and tell me I don't have the spirit of God living inside.
And if tonques are for today, do you also pick up serpents and drink poison? That's in there also, isn't it?
We are suppose to edify the church. We are suppose to tell of Jesus and His willingness to save, not going around putting everybody down because we don't have this or that gift. God is the issuer of gifts. And tongues is listed as the LEAST gift in the Bible.
But I am not saying you don't have this gift or anything. Just that all people are not expected to have it. There are many gifts and they all should come together for the edifying of the church.
God bless
Susan</font>[/QUOTE]The bible says a brother offended is harder to win than a stron city. I understand what you are saying when you say you see them in the store and they turn their noses up. It is wrong. I cant stand it either. But your going to find that where ever you go. Im sure we all have went somewhere before and someone turned their nose up at us. But most of the time the only reason you know it was a oneness Pentecostal is b/c the way they were dressed.

I know how you feel with your husband and probably know how bad it hurts. WHen I first got in church my zeal was so strong and I did not care who I hurt as long as I made my point. And I was wrong. My point would have made more sence if I would have just lived it instead of opening my mouth.

We are supposed to be the salt of the earth. No one wants someone jumping down their throat all the time telling them they are wrong and that unless you do this or that you are going to go to hell. Thats the way my Fiance's mom is. I felt like slapping her upside her head and kicking her in her shin a couple of times. But oh well, I am not going to loose my walk with God just b/c someone tells me I am wrong.

Look all I am trying to say is that dont judge an apple tree by one bad apple or even three that fell off the branch last month and that the worms got to.

 

[Don]

Let me see if I can try to explain something here.

In a nutshell, you're basically reiterating much of what we've been saying here. The letter to the church at Corinth was a rebuke and exhortation. Chapter 14 was specificially aimed at telling the Corinthian church that they were using the gift of tongues incorrectly.

In context with what Brian and I have been saying, he's evidenced that his church is incorrectly using the gift as well, and that's where this conversation has gone at this point.

If you can show where Brian's church is NOT violating scripture (as in, let one or two or three speak in tongues, as opposed to the entire congregation at once), then please do so.

Let me ask, are the "Gifts" being used in the church world today...correctly?

In a nutshell, NO.

 

[Don]

Don, He could probably answer that better than I could tell you what he says. If you want why dont you email him and let him know about the discussion we are haveing his email address is

Kmarshburn@hotmail.com

That was a huge cop-out, Brian. Are you afraid to ask him?

And yes, I will e-mail him, and relate what you've told me (without using your name), and ask for an answer.

But the question remains: Why aren't YOU asking him?

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Don:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Let me see if I can try to explain something here.

In a nutshell, you're basically reiterating much of what we've been saying here. The letter to the church at Corinth was a rebuke and exhortation. Chapter 14 was specificially aimed at telling the Corinthian church that they were using the gift of tongues incorrectly.

In context with what Brian and I have been saying, he's evidenced that his church is incorrectly using the gift as well, and that's where this conversation has gone at this point.

If you can show where Brian's church is NOT violating scripture (as in, let one or two or three speak in tongues, as opposed to the entire congregation at once), then please do so.

Let me ask, are the "Gifts" being used in the church world today...correctly?

In a nutshell, NO.</font>[/QUOTE]So in a nutshell if we are using the gift wrong, That means the Gift is still here.

 

[Don]

Don't read more into my answer than there was. The question was, "are the gifts being used in the church world today correctly," not "are the gifts still alive in the church world today"...using a shovel incorrectly might mean that you have a shovel, but it doesn't mean you're digging a hole....

[ May 15, 2002, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:

That is plain Scripture isnt it? I cant argue with that and I have often wondered the same thing. But when I pray, I pray out loud and When I praise God I praise God out loud, and when I was praising God I spoke in tongues.

Do you honestly believe that the Spirit of God is making you violate His written Holy Word? Why would the Spirit do that? Isn't it supposed to be that same Spirit that told Paul to write these instructions that you now claim is compeling you to ignore them? Where is the order in that?

~Lorelei

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy: Proving the miraculous sign gifts have ceased is very easy...Paul wrote, in 1 Corinthians 13:8, "tongues shall cease."

Paul also says, "if there is knowledge, it will be done away." We still have knowledge (as far as I can tell).

It might be very hard to prove "miraculous sign gifts have ceased" with the cessation of knowledge.

Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy: The time of that is revealed in verse 9, "when the perfect comes the imperfect will pass away."

The time when "tongues shall cease" will be when the "perfect comes." The "perfect" (the day when "the partial will be done away," when we shall see "face to face," and when we shall "know fully," i.e. when Christ brings us to Heaven) has not yet arrived.

Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy: He then says, quite clearly, in verse 13, "Now these three remain . . ." Note he does NOT say "these six remain . . ." And the three he lists as remaining, faith, hope and love. No "tongues." No "prophecy." And no "knowledge."

If no knowledge, how can you know that there is no knowledge?

What the apostle says is clear. It's one's interpretation of what Paul "says, quite clearly," which mayn be in question.

Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy: God said it, Paul recorded it. Now all you have to do is repent of your unbelief and accept what God has said!

With all due respect, it is more accurate for Cassidy to have asserted: "God said it, Paul recorded it. Now all you have to do is repent of your unbelief and accept how I interpret what God has said!

 

[panza1_99]

Originally posted by Don:
Question, panza: The word "deacon" is found in Phillipians 1:1, and 1 Timothy 3:8, 10, 12, and 13.

What does the orignal Greek word mean? And where else is it used, and with regards to whom?

Just curious; not detracting from what you're saying at all.

hello Don. the orignal Greek word for Deacon isiakonos = Servant. Go to the Nave's topical Bible and you will find more answers there. Easton's bible dictionary also has 3 meanings for deacon. they are:runner,messenger,and servant. you asked where else is it used, and with regards to whom? are you asking for scripture on this? seeing i'm not baptist, i can see why you're curious..[a little humor here...lol]..hope i've answered your ?'s...panza

 

[Lorelei]

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him , anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord shall raise him up: and if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed" (James 5:14-16).

Why does this say to go to the edlers of the church?

1 Corinthians 12:9 says that some were given the gift of healing. Why doesn't this verse mention those that have the gift of healing?

~Lorelei

 

[Don]

Hi, Panza. I apologize if I seem a little devious here, but I already knew what you posted; I'm asking for those that brought up the subject to take a closer look at it themselves.

And yes, I'm interested in the additional scripture(s) that I didn't list where "diakonos" is used.

Now I'm gonna go back and see if I can figure out why I even brought it up...and naturally, I'm not smart enough to see where I posted that. Could you help me out, Panza?

--Oh, wait; there it is on page 3. Now I remember. Panza, if you check further down in the "Other Religions" section, you'll find a thread I started called "What are the Spiritual Gifts?" In it I listed the scriptures that tell us what the gifts are, and I was hoping to generate discussion and explanation of several of them (so far, people seem to be reluctant to get into this).

If you peruse that list, you'll find that "deacon" is not specifically listed as one of them....

[ May 17, 2002, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[Don]

Don, He could probably answer that better than I could tell you what he says. If you want why dont you email him and let him know about the discussion we are haveing

Oneness/Brian, I'm still waiting for your pastor to reply to my e-mail (that I sent to him the same day you offered this to me, May 15).

Perhaps you could ask him for me why he's not responding?

[ May 17, 2002, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:

That is plain Scripture isnt it? I cant argue with that and I have often wondered the same thing. But when I pray, I pray out loud and When I praise God I praise God out loud, and when I was praising God I spoke in tongues.

Do you honestly believe that the Spirit of God is making you violate His written Holy Word? Why would the Spirit do that? Isn't it supposed to be that same Spirit that told Paul to write these instructions that you now claim is compeling you to ignore them? Where is the order in that?

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]B/C there is something there that you guys just cant see, and never will b/c you cant accept it