What has ceased?

Atestring, I am so sorry that you and others did not understand what I was saying. I was saying we make judgements all the time in regards to who is lost and who isn't. Last time you witnessed to someone, you must have assumed, based on some word or action, the person was not saved. By doing so you "judged" them a certain way. We apply certain elements of God's Word and make our judgements, never knowing for certain we are right. If the person openly says that they hate God and don't believe God exists we can almost be certain they are lost, right?? So, unless you never draw a certain "line" whereby the one who crosses it is deemed unsaved, you judge, just as I did about Benny Hinn. I fall short of God daily and Sin because I am still in this flesh. I would never say that is not the case. I think I have shown on the BB that I am not condemming nor self-exaulting. Does the way I put it now make more sense? I do not want to leave you with the wrong impression again. BTW, "Brickguy" was very funny.

Carol, Can I get a copy of the video to see.? Could part of it be placed on the web? I could e-mail you my address and you could send me a copy COD. I feel I should not critize something I have not seen. It is not proof to me unless I see it. The problem is you and I see things through slightly different eyes. Besides I am always a "see for myself" person. Please consider my request. Thanks

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

Carol, just to clarify, even if I see the video, it does not mean that the "gift of healing" was exercised, just that God answered prayer in one instance. How many people got healed besides the person of whom you spoke? Remember, by virtue of the nature of the other gifts "healing" as a gift would be up to the one woith the gift, not God. Now itis strictly up to God, as that power was for a very short time with a very specific purpose.

In Christ,
Brian

 

If you turn a few pages you will also see that Jesus was sometimes hindered from performing miracles because of the unbelief of the people. (see Mark 6:5)

If the gift of healing is in operation within the mainstream churches in the Western world, then those who exercise this gift will do so according to the express will of the Father. (Those who biblically exercise legitimate spiritual gifts of power must rely on God’s power – they don’t have the power in themselves to do anything.)

What’s the scriptural basis for this ‘all or nothing’ concept of spiritual gifts of power?

 

Briguy,

I guess you missed this so I'll just post it again.

It doesn.t matter what you have made up in your mind about things, it matters what the scripture says.

Mee is right, not all the people ever got healed ALL the time in the Bible.

Please read this:

Zac 4-6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Even when you have the gifts, they are operated by God through you. Since it is God that heals and not the person with the gift, God gets to decide who gets healed and who doesn't!!!

Moving on to what HAS ceased, hers one for you.

In the old testament,when a child became unruly and the parents could not get them to behave(they had to be really bad) the whole town took them out to the edge of town and stoned them ubtil they were dead. Now I don't know about the rest of you, but that is one that I am GLAD that it has ceased.

Working for Him,

Tam,

 

That’s why I used the word “if”. I don’t think I’ve witnessed the gift of healing myself (although I have witnessed God healing people when I and others prayed for them), but I suspect that the gift might be in operation in other parts of the world where there is less opportunity for healthcare. A black pastor friend of mine once told me that folks in the black community about 60 years ago did not always have reliable access to doctors and they prayed for each other quite a bit and saw people healed – some of the older women were known for the way God used them. He was not a charismatic by any means, but he did not deny that God might frequently channel certain gifts through select individuals.

I fully realize that what I have said is not evidence to a skeptical mind – I’m really not that interested in trying to convince you. But what would be sufficient evidence for you?

Yep. I suggested nothing else. If you think I did, you’re confusing me with another person.

What “facts” do you require?

Of course.

There are people whom God occasionally/frequently uses to exercise certain works of power, but they try to avoid attention so that they will not become the focus of the event.

I have little more than contempt for those folks who prey on desperate people to extort their money and build self-centered empires. (Unfortunately, the Fort Worth area has more than its share of those charlatans like Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland.)

The Scriptural basis is in 1Cor.13:8, where it says that prophecy, tongues, and revelatory knowledge shall all pass away or cease. The question is when. The rest of the context tells us that they passed away when the Word of God was completed at the end of the first century. </font>[/QUOTE]I suspected that would be your answer. Many of us understand that reference to be the return of Christ, not some ‘completion of the canon’ on the basis of the plain context of that passage and the broader teachings of Jesus. (See verse 12 specifically: “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.” – the canon of scripture does not fully know us.)

Therefore, according to the way many of us understand the scripture, you don’t have biblical backing to make the claims against gifts of power that you are making.

 

I probably agree with you in more areas than you think. Sometimes it comes down to semantics and a correct definition in terminology. I have been on the mission field and have also seen a good many of people healed, but I would never refer to myself as a faith-healer, neither would I ever claim to have the gift of healing. I certainly believe that God heals, and in quite remarkable ways. I believe that it is in answer to prayer--not through a gift of healing. Consider once again this Scripture:

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

The Apostles, at certain time in their ministries had the power to heal everyone that came to them. My contention with the Charismatics on this board is that no one today has that power. That is the genuine, supernatural gift of healing. It is not in operation today. If it is please, please, document it, give evidence of it. Invite him over to our city. We have so many sick people in our hospitals that need to be healed. I would like to see this gift in operation. It would be wonderful if it were in operation today but it isn't.
Consider the list of spiritual gifts at the end of 1Cor.12:28. They are all listed in order of importance. Guess which one is listed last. It is the gift of tongues--the least of all the gifts. Healing is a greater, more important gift than that of tongues. If that is so, then would it not be logical to conclude that this gift would be more prominent than tongues. But the fact remains that it is non-existent, which calls in question the very authenticity of tongues itself.

I believe my interpretation of 1Cor.13:8-13 is correct as do many others on this board. But not to get into that discussion right now, consider one other point of time.
With reference to tongues:

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Tongues were for a sign for the unbelieving Jew. Paul quoted from Isaiah in verse 21 saying that men with other tongues would speak to the nation of Israel. It would be a sign to them. And yet even with the sign of tongues the nation of Israel still would not believe the gospel, or accept the Messiah. Verse 22 is connected with verse 21 by "wherefore." Then he says plainly that tongues are for a sign for the unbeliever--specifically referring to the unbelieving Jew. Tongues were a sign for a short period of time--to the unbelieving Jew, to authenticate the gospel message of the Apostles. They rejected it, and judgement came as Isaiah had predicted. The prophecy came true, and the Roman general Titus came in 70 A.D. and destroyed their city, Jerusalem, and the Temple as well. The Jews also were dispersed. By that time or shortly after tongues had ceased. Tongues are one of three gifts that are mentioned in 1Cor.13:8 that would cease. These three gifts are representative of at least all the sign gifts of the first century, if not all the spiritual gifts of the first century. They were not just talents; but gifts that were given supernaturally.
DHK

 

Hi Tam, I saw this post before ZI guess I didn't know you wantedme to respond. In Zac 4-6 there was no "gifts" as the Holy Spirit had not come yet to give birth to the "church".

Tam, I have said several times that we see no difference in scripture in the way a person used their gift. Preachers preached, teachers taught, helpers helped and administrators administrated. They didn't ask God for the gift every time they used the gift. A gift is part of us as evidenced by the gifts in action, then and now. Now we have the service gifts which complete the "body" as described in 1 cor. 12. The Bible is God's written authority. Back then healings and miracles and even tongues until 70ad, by their miraculous nature gave authority to whta the believers were teaching. These things were needed for the church to grow and expand the way it did. After the Bible was complete then the authority and power was in God's written and final Word.

The perfect in my opinion is neither what DHK says or exactly what you say. It is not Jesus coming that is the only way to perfection. It is us going to him. Therefore the "perfect is our eternal state, personally. For those Christians who die before the rapture it is when they die that the "perfect" comes and for those who are alive at the second coming the "perfect" is the establishing of the "kingdom of God". That way of looking at it seems to meet all the text issues that are involved. DHK, I just have to believe that Paul would not have been so abstract if he had meant the Bible. (that is my problem with that belief, though I admit I see the argument for it).

In Christian Love,
brian

 

Manifestations are not new.
Study the Cane Ridge Revival of 1801.
The Great Awakening.
The ministry of John Wesley.
the Ministry of George Whitfield.
The ministry of Chalres Finney.
The Ulster Presbryterians of Ulster scottland in the 1600's.
You will find that manifestions of The Holy Spirit have been with us and they are not something to be afraid of.
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree the manifestation of the 1Cor 12 spiritual gifts is "not new".

What I want to do is distinguish between genuine and counterfeit.

I have attended a number of Charismatic meetings and churches with good friends in each. It is not because I have not seen what they are doing - it is because I am not convinced that what they are doing matches up with the way the Bible describes the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Your statement only belies the fact that you don't read my posts, for I never said that. What I did say is that there were times in the Apostles' ministry (as well in those of the minitries' of some early believers) that they were able to heal all who came to them. I did not say that they could do this all the time. They could not speak in tongues all the time either. Both gifts were given only when needed.
Here is the evidence, just as I gave before:

Acts 5:15-16 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
They were healed every one. Does every one mean everone? Or does it mean ALL? You choose. The Apostles had the power at certain times in their ministry to heal ALL that came to them. Do you?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ok I see.....yet you want us to take your challenge and walk into a hospital and heal everyone? Hummmm
~Matt. 13:54-58 & Mark 6:1-6 And He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.~
You know as well as I do that not all the people in the hospitals would be instantly healed if they get healed at all if a Spirit filled person walked the corridors. You want to guess why?
Some have put thier trust/belief in the doctors to heal them. Some just don't belive in healing period. I won't take your challenge to prove nothing to a man, but if the Lord spoke to me and tells me to go and if it is to glorify God and not to prove a point. Then Yes if the Lord tells me to go, I would go.

---------------

Your right some didn't. It wasnt always God's will for all to be healed. But it definitely was at certain times in the ministries of the Apostles, as evidenced in the Scriptures above. Surely you believe the Bible, don't you?

This is more evidence that you don't read my posts, or just don't want to believe the truth (which is more likely to be the truth). The gift of healing has ceased. That is correct. If it hasn't you haven't given any evidence that it is still in operation today. I never said that God doesn't heal today. I said the very opposite, and you even quoted me as saying it. God heals. Period. But the gift of healing has ceased. If it hasn't show me the person who can heal all that comes to him. Back up your claim with some solid evidence.
Likewise do the same with tongues. You can't.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Ok
DHK I agree with you when you say... It has always been God that heals, He still heals today therefore (what I have been trying to say in most of my post, but you seem to totaly ignore me) for the gift of healing to have ceased there would be no healing at all...nada...nil...none, but God is still on the throne! And the Holy Ghost is still being poured out today. I can't help to think that Jesus looked ahead at all of us and left the comforter here for us too. (John 14:26) (Acts 2) (1Cor.12).

Also think about what you said about the Triune in page 2 quote....
-------------------------------------
Quote By DHK (page 2)
So this is really an accusation that all those on this board such as Briguy, Walguy, Don, and many more who believe that the gifts have ceased, must also believe of necessity that God is dead. That is quite an arrogant insult to throw at us. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the triune Godhead in case you don't get the implication here.
---------------------------------------

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1Cor. 13:8-12
13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do you think that maybe Paul knows that Jesus will return so the gifts are still here because there is still unbelivers in this day and age.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; then shall I know even as also I am known.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul knows we don't know it all, even John (21:25) said if all the things that Jesus did was written that the world could not contain the books. But when Jesus comes and we see Him face to face well then we'll know.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[ March 24, 2004, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Gina L ]

 

Yes, in order for you to demonstrate that the gift of healing is for today, I want you to take my challenge, not to make excuses for it as you are doing right now.
When Jesus healed, he healed all that came to Him, whether they believed or not--belief is only an excuse on your part. He healed 10 lepers; only one returned to give thanks. What about the other nine. They didn't even believe, thought they were healed. Jesus fed the 5,000. They followed him for the food and because of the miracles that He did, not because they were saved. It says that Jesus knew their hearts. He healed them in spite of their unbelief. Your excuse for not taking the challenge is very lame indeed. Peter healed all--whether they believed or not--that came to Him. It doesn't say that everyone believed. It says that everyone got healed. There is a difference.
If you follow the directives given in James 5 concerning healing you find that the healing has nothing to do with the faith of the one being healed. If one is sick he is to to the elders of the church, who are to anoint him with oil and pray for him. Then it says that the prayer of faith shall heal the sick. But wait a minute! What is the prayer of faith? Whose faith? It is the faith of the pastor(s), the so-called faith healer if you will. Don't you dare blame any sick person for not having enough faith. That is inexcusable. If you can't heal someone, and you have the gift; the fault is all yours. You are the one that lacks in faith, not the patient; not the sick! James says it is the prayer of faith--the faith of the pastor or the one praying--not the faith of the sick person! You Charismatics are soooo messed up on this. You try to play the blame game. You say people don't have enough faith when they are sick. You make them feel guilty when they don't get healed. So, they are even further degraded because it is all their fault. What a cruel form of Christianity this Charismatic movement has. I wonder how many of you wear glasses. Why doesn't God heal you all? Not enough faith, eh? Or you just have to trust in your eye doctor instead?

You say if the Lord tells me I would go...
You know the Lord wouldn't tell you to go into the hospitals and heal all the sick because in your heart of hearts you know the gift of healing has ceased but you are too proud to admit it.

I've already said it half a dozen times; I'll say it again. The gift of healing has ceased; but God still heals. I am sorry that your mind cannot comprehend this concept. If the gift of healing were operative today and you had it you would be able to take my challenge above and heal all that were in a hospital, or all that came to you, like Peter did, or like Jesus did. Do you understand yet?
DHK

 

M4H, The real problem here is the definition of a spiritual gift. We, DHK, myself, Don, etc... stick with the simple Biblical application of what a gift was. That being something fully given from God to us for us to use when we choose. You seem to say a spiritual gift is given to the believer but only powered up by God once in a while. Please then, tell me how the gift of Administations (governments), Helps, even Teaching, can work using your definition. (DHK, believes that All the gifts have passed and I believe that miracles, healings, tongues, and Int. of Tongues, have passed. In this question, deal with gifts as they would be used in the early church) Thanks in advance. Take care,
In Christ,
Brian

 

This is what you said DHK:
When Jesus healed, he healed all that came to Him, whether they believed or not--


Matt. 13:54-58 & Mark 6:1-6 And He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.~


Matt. 13:54-58 & Mark 6:1-6 And He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.~

Matt. 13:54-58 & Mark 6:1-6 And He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.~

Can't you see how stupid your statement is?

W A K E U P

 

Tam, Jesus chose not to, which is completely different. The people were not believing and so he chose not to do miracles, heal, etc... there.

- Brian

 

There seems to be an echo in here---------the gifts are gone---------
no they're not---------
Are to--------------

Are not---------------

ARE TO-------------

ARE NOT---------------

ARE TO--------------

ARE NOT---------------

A R E T O--------

A R E N O T -----------

T H E G I F T S A R E N O T G O N E

Ho hum---zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz



Tam

 

People seem to ignore my question as to who gives anyone of us to expunge I Corinthians 12 and 14.

If we are allowed to dismantle parts of the Word of God--the Bible, then just who is given the authority to discount whole chapters of the canonical books?

 

Quote by Music4Him
--------------------------------------------------
Ok I see.....yet you want us to take your challenge and walk into a hospital and heal everyone? Hummmm
~Matt. 13:54-58 & Mark 6:1-6 And He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.~
You know as well as I do that not all the people in the hospitals would be instantly healed if they get healed at all if a Spirit filled person walked the corridors. You want to guess why?
Some have put thier trust/belief in the doctors to heal them. Some just don't belive in healing period. I won't take your challenge to prove nothing to a man, but if the Lord spoke to me and tells me to go and if it is to glorify God and not to prove a point. Then Yes if the Lord tells me to go, I would go.
--------------------------------------------------


DHK's Reply
--------------------------------------------------
Yes, in order for you to demonstrate that the gift of healing is for today, I want you to take my challenge, not to make excuses for it as you are doing right now.
When Jesus healed, he healed all that came to Him, whether they believed or not--belief is only an excuse on your part. He healed 10 lepers; only one returned to give thanks. What about the other nine. They didn't even believe, thought they were healed. Jesus fed the 5,000. They followed him for the food and because of the miracles that He did, not because they were saved. It says that Jesus knew their hearts. He healed them in spite of their unbelief. Your excuse for not taking the challenge is very lame indeed. Peter healed all--whether they believed or not--that came to Him. It doesn't say that everyone believed. It says that everyone got healed. There is a difference.
If you follow the directives given in James 5 concerning healing you find that the healing has nothing to do with the faith of the one being healed. If one is sick he is to to the elders of the church, who are to anoint him with oil and pray for him. Then it says that the prayer of faith shall heal the sick. But wait a minute! What is the prayer of faith? Whose faith? It is the faith of the pastor(s), the so-called faith healer if you will. Don't you dare blame any sick person for not having enough faith. That is inexcusable. If you can't heal someone, and you have the gift; the fault is all yours. You are the one that lacks in faith, not the patient; not the sick! James says it is the prayer of faith--the faith of the pastor or the one praying--not the faith of the sick person! You Charismatics are soooo messed up on this. You try to play the blame game. You say people don't have enough faith when they are sick. You make them feel guilty when they don't get healed. So, they are even further degraded because it is all their fault. What a cruel form of Christianity this Charismatic movement has. I wonder how many of you wear glasses. Why doesn't God heal you all? Not enough faith, eh? Or you just have to trust in your eye doctor instead?

You say if the Lord tells me I would go...
You know the Lord wouldn't tell you to go into the hospitals and heal all the sick because in your heart of hearts you know the gift of healing has ceased but you are too proud to admit it.
--------------------------------------------------

DHK,
No I will not take your challenge and not because I don't have faith, because I do
~Rom.12:3- For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You also said above that Jesus healed everyone even unbelivers? ~Matthew 13:58
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. (Briguy said Jesus chose not to heal) I choose not to prove nothing to you. If I did go and people did get healed through the gift of healing you wouldn't belive me any how would you?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The faith healing that James spoke of was working in (seems to me), is operating under the gift of faith spoken of in ~1Cor.12:9- To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

~James 5:13-16 -
13
Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Also did anyone else notice in 1Cor.12:9, Healing and Faith still operate under the same Spirit and would that be the same faith that James speaks of?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am getting the feeling that when it comes to people that operate under the gifts of the Spirit you don't like them very much? There is no way I would tell those who didn't get healed they didn't have faith. Why do I get that feeling? Maybe because you call them names and say that what they have is of the devil and a cheep imatation. Who are you to say how God might operate in one's life? Why do you make unproductive slurs aginst ones religious beliefs and faith? If they have accepted Jesus as thier Lord and Savior wouldn't the Holy Spirit guide them? My bible says He will.
~John 14:26 -
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

~Heb.12:2 -
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DHK you said to me...........
You know the Lord wouldn't tell you to go into the hospitals and heal all the sick because in your heart of hearts you know the gift of healing has ceased but you are too proud to admit it.

No! I do not know that in my heart, because I have seen people healed (including me) and I think its not a curse, but a gift to be healed. So if you get healed is it not a gift? As is a person who operates under the Spirit of the gift of healing or the Spirit of the gifts of faith. Its the same Spirit of God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost)

Some people are interpreting the scripture on this subject of healing and tongues in different ways to line up with their religious beliefs. Not even looking at the different denominations that operate under different gifts of the Spirit. But like it or not, God has dealt every man a measure of faith. Would that be same faith mentioned in 1Cor. 12:9... faith by the same Spirit and healing by the same Spirit;

Music4Him

 

Quote by DHK
--------------------------------------------------
I've already said it half a dozen times; I'll say it again. The gift of healing has ceased; but God still heals. I am sorry that your mind cannot comprehend this concept. If the gift of healing were operative today and you had it you would be able to take my challenge above and heal all that were in a hospital, or all that came to you, like Peter did, or like Jesus did. Do you understand yet?
DHK
--------------------------------------------------No DHK its not that I don't understand....
You tell me where in the bible it teaches us the gifts have cease.

Although we may not agree on all things, we both still can agree with this.... that its still God that does the healing.

Music4Him

 

The complaining father in Matthew 17:14 is a clear indication that the disciples/apostles did not always find success in their healing attempts even while Jesus was still on the earth. In fact, the father's complaint was directed to Jesus. 'I brought him {my son} to THY DISCIPLES, AND THEY COULD NOT CURE HIM.' [17:16]

So let none 'go over the top' by saying that Jesus and His apostles always healed all who came to them. Mark 9:24 may be the same man who requested the healing of his son, that is recorded in Matthew 17:14.

The disciples/apostles seem frustrated when they said, 'Why could not we cast him out?'

The challenge that 21st century Christians should enter hospitals and try to heal all patients, seem like a pre-teen argument as to a sincerity to reach all ailing people. At this rate, no one would ever die and Heaven would be without population. In the days of the apostles as well as in our days, the will of God will be regnant in all matters of Divine healing.

 

Amen!

Notice in 1 Cor.12:9) What everyone is calling "The gift of healing" is not what it says. If you will notice, it says, "Gift(s) of healing by the same Spirit.

These 'healings' come from God and were left for "The Church." To imply that one has a special gift and can heal at anytime is not what it is meaning.

A person doesn't carry these "gifts" of healing around and distribute them at their command. Only God can heal, not people. It didn't happen that way in the days of the apostles and it doesn't happen that way now.

Good post Ray!

MEE