What has ceased?

Tongues have not ceased!..not until the end of the Gentile dispensation.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/New-ch11.htm

MEE

 

John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

DHK has some real issues about tongues and the gifts of the Spirit (as likewise he should, as all of us should have some concern because remember that the word says, it warns us that in the last days even some of Gods elect will be decived.). I could be wrong about your veiw DHK, but I belive it has to do with the scriptures where the bible speaks of false prophets and some of the places where you (DHK) has gone on your missionary journeys and some of the false doctrine that was preached before you had arrived there that some have recived in those areas?

Well just to set the record straight concerning me and as to what I belive. The Gospel message should be preached to the lost and leading sinners to salvation (the salvation message the way the baptist preach it) this is the first and formost thing in my heart.
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DHK you said:
You judge me wrongly, and you judge on the wrong basis. The Bible commands us to judge, according to John 7:24.
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Was you not judgeing wrongly too? Please go back and read all the scripture passage agian starting from John 7:14-24. Paying attention to verses 17 & 18.
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You make judgements every day. If you had to have a blood transfusion, would you take blood from someone with AIDS? Aren't you makeing a judgement? If you need to go to a doctor for any reason, would you go to a mechanic instead? Aren't you making a judgement?
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Judgements and decisions are a little different and I hope you know the difference? Its a decision whether or not to have a blood transfusion.
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You made an unjust judgment and an unjust accusation which is false. I am not bitter against any Christian. You ought to make a retraction if you have any Christian integrity at all.
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You can honestly say that (in your opinion) you are not bitter aginst christians (according to your definition to what a christian is ie does not talk in tongues, does not heal like the apostles, does not prophsey), but your definition may not be everybodys veiw here on this board?
But it was ok for you to call certian christians (namely those who belive in the gifts of the Spirit) names and pass judgements of saying what they have is not of God? Where is your retractions where is your christian integrity? You attacked certian denoms and not bibically pointing out their errors? (isn't that what your bible says to do?)
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DHK said:
I am not against Christian; I am against false doctrine. Tongues is one of the most grievous and fast growing false doctrines that there is today. It is a heresy that has deceived many, and led others into cults and damnable heresies resulting in eternal damnation. It leads others into demonic activity, and some into demon possession. If it is of the Holy Spirit how do you explain Voodoo worshippers speaking in tongues, Hindus speaking in tongues, etc. You say this is all of the Holy Spirit. No, this is of the devil. Satan imitates the things of God. What you have is a cheap imitation of the real thing. I feel sorry that you are so deceived. You have been presented Scripture after Scripture, and like the Pharissees of old you reject them all. That is sad, truly sad. You trust your emotions and experiences rather than the Word of God. Experiences are more important to you than the Scriptures. You have had your experience and therefore you know it is true. That is fallacious.
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Like I say there is false doctrines and false teachers out there. (Thats why we most definently need one of the 9 gifts *the descerning of spirits) Why do you think Jesus and the apostles like Peter and later on Paul (just to mention a few), give warnings and exsplained the workings of the Holy Ghost? Because warnings of false doctrines and teachers?
2Peter 2:1-3, 10-22 ........1John 2:18-25; 4:1-6 ........2Thess.2:1-12

BTW, DHK I read the mission story you shared on one of the other boards (I think it was to Emily?)something along the lines about the people being told they had to speak in tongues, so that when you began to speak they began thier thing? I am sure you can share some real sad stories on how other sects have polluted the gifts. I could not help but to get upset with them people myself. The gifts should be exsplained thourghly and thier purpose. The gifts are not a requirement of salvation. Accepting Jesus as your savior is. (But of course you know that.) You also said that satan imitates the things of God........well then you tell me then why is satan imitating tongues then?
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I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I stand upon the unshakeable promises of the Word of God, not the waffling experiences of mankind.
DHK
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Ephesians 4:30-32; 5:1-12
4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
4:31
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
5:2
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
5:3
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
5:4
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5:5
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
5:7
Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
5:8
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
5:9
(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
5:10
Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
5:12
For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

Walk in love and you will know them by their fruits. Prove that which is good.

Music4Him

 

HEy Mee:
That was an interesting website:
Someone has done their homework.

 

Opps forget to put one little / slashy thing in and look what happens. ****Music4Him blushing.

Can't say I ain't no lady if I can still blush. tee hee hee. TG! That hasn't ceased either.

I have noticed that its according to the different doctrines that is as to what has ceased. I have also noticed that the one starting this thread micaharron has not came in and made any comments recently? Hummmmmmmm did he succeed in what he was doing and plant some division between us? Just my own humble obsevation.

Music4Him

 

DHK,

You must be the one that Trying2understand is looking for on the $64,000 question!

The question is "how do you know that your interpretation of scripture is the right one? How do you know for sure"?

So you need to go and explain it to him.



Because I know you can answer that question!

Tam,

 

This biased site can be easily refuted. It is filled with inaccuracies, needless assumptions, reading between the lines, redefining terms in the way that you would like them to think that they mean speaking in tongues when they don't. In short it is a farce.
DHK

 

Your right. I can, and I have--in another thread. So I don't want to get into it all over again. He knows my answer. He can take it or leave it.
DHK

 

Opinions don't count, though you are entitled to them. Back it up with Scripture. Give evidence that your view is the correct view. And don't answer my challenge with another challenge or question of your own.
DHK

 

What kind of a god do voodoo and Hindu worshippers pray to?

My question still stands!

MEE </font>[/QUOTE]Voodoo worshipers pray to Satan of course, and demon-inspired tongue speakers may unwittingly be doing the same thing. This was happening in the church of Corinth if you study 1Cor.12:1-4. They were calling Jesus accursed while they were speaking in tongues. Paul rebukes them for this, saying you cannot do that by the power of the Holy Spirit. Obviously they were under the control of another spirit, such as some of you may be. How do you know you are not. You don't know what you are saying. Biblical tongues were actual foreign languages. Yours are not. Therefore, they may very well be of Satan. You don't know for sure, do you?
DHK

 

I have issues with those who refuse to answer the Bible and cannot answer the Bible on why tongues have ceased. Atestring for example closes his mind to all Scriptural evidence, and simply calls cessationism a heresy. He doesn't even consider the evidence.

Two quick points: What do you do with 1Cor.14:21,22: where it is so obvious that tongues are a sign to the unbelieving Jews. The unbelieving Jew had their chance to believe. Then judgement came. It came in the form of Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 A.D. Tongues have ceased since then. No one has successfully refuted this point yet. Explain this passage of Scripture. Tongues are for a sign to the unbelieving Jew.

Secondly, under no circumstance were women ever allowed to speak in tongues. Expain that one to me, since most of the ones posting here are women.

Every decision is based on a judgement. We were not created as mindless creatures. You make judgements every day. (or decisions based on your judgements.)
An animal makes a decision based on his insinct. I hope that you do better than that.

Acts 13:9-10 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

Yes, I can honestly say that I am not bitter against anyone on this board. I don't think that Paul was either in the above passage. It says that he was full of the Holy Spirit when he said what he did in verse 10. The Bible condemns error and falsity. So do I. Read through Matthew 23, and see what Jesus had to say about the Pharisses.

Tongues WAS a genuing gift of the Holy Spirit of God given in the first century. It ceased by the end of the first century. It was silent for 1800 years. Now all of sudden since the beginning of the 20th century we have the modern tongues movement which is the devil's imitation of the God's gift of tongues in the first century. We can tell it is not the real gift because there are so many obviuos discrepancies, all of which are given in the fourteenth chapter of First Corinthians, which you seem to completely overlook. It is a real language. Tongues of today are not real genuine languages; they are simply gibberish--nonsense syllables. They were meant for unbelieving Jews. There are no unbelieving Jews in churches today. Women are forbidden to speak in tongues, and yet there are just as many women (if not more) that speak in tongues as men. The most that can speak in tongues is three, and they have to have an interpreter, and they have to speak in turn. This very rarely (if ever happens) in a Charismatic Church. Usually it is pandemonium with most if not all speaking in tongues, and all at the same time, with no interpretation.
Added to all of that you have the Third Wave excesses (not spoken of anywhere in the Bible) such as roaring like a lion, barking like a dog, hissing like a snake, etc. And this is all of the Holy Spirit??

I do. That which is good is the Word of God. Otherwise the Bible says "There is none good, no not one."
DHK

 

DHK said:
Therefore, they may very well be of Satan. You don't know for sure, do you?

The scriptures say:
Rom. 12:2 -
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2Cor. 13:5 -
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1Thess. 5:21 -
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

1 Corinthians 14:26-
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

1John 4:1-8
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1John 4:1-8 says it best... belive not every spirit, but try the spirits weather they are of God........

But these are a few ways christians can know whether or not they or someone else they know speaking in tongues or any of the gifts on that matter has the Real Thing.~
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It came in the form of Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 A.D. Tongues have ceased since then. No one has successfully refuted this point yet.
Where is the scripture stating that it ceased in 70 A.D. and that this was the time of the unbeliving Jews judgement? Because if this is true by the way you are saying it....then they (the jewish people)will have no chance to belive for salvation? Wow!

 

DHK said:
It came in the form of Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 A.D. Tongues have ceased since then. No one has successfully refuted this point yet.


Brother Ray~ refuted this point, but I noticed you didn't answer him?

Ray said:
The destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. by Titus has nothing to do with the 'gifts of the Spirit.'
It means only that the Jew were judged for not accepting Christ and were dispersed into all the nations of the world. As you know, they are coming back to Israel even from Russia, which is part of end time eschatology, [Ezekiel 36:24 & 37:21] for the purpose of evangelizing them once again. [Romans 11:23-24 & 26-27]

Israel will be restored in the time of the future Great Tribulation and during the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. In Ezekiel 36:5 God calls Israel, 'My land.' Moreover, He/God calls the Israelites ' . . . My people Israel.'

 

Ray referred to the gifts of the Spirit. 1Cor.14:21,22 does not refer to all the gifts of the Spirit, but it definitely refers to the gift of tongues. Tongues were a sign to the unbelieving Jew.
Verse 21, Paul quoting from Isaiah 28, says with people of other tongues will I speak unto this people (Israel) and yet they will not hear or believe. Instead God would bring judgement because of their unbelief. The tongues was a sign to these Jews--the nation of Israel. This is very plain just from verse 21 alone. And to make it even more clear, Paul further says in verse 22:

"Wherefore tongues are a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not."
--This alone goes against everything you practice. First the whole chapter speaks of tongues edifying the church. Second it says that tongues are for a sign to the unbelieving Jews. Is your church a church filled with unbelievers? Specifically unbelieving Jews? What kind of church do you have anyway? Judgement came upon the Jews because they did not take heed to this SIGN.
When did judgment come. Point to a time and place in history when judgement came. It was in 70 A.D. when they were judged, God sending Titus to destroy their Temple, and their city, and to disperse their people. Only 1900 people later did Israel become a nation (1948) and under the auspices of the U.N., and were granted their homeland once again. Yes, all of this does tie in with the end times; there is no doubt about this. It only goes to show how much in harmony the Bible is. Tongues ceased. It's purpose was fulfilled in 70 A.D. You give the proper interpretation of 1Cor.l4:21,22, if you don't believe me. While your at it, tell me why women disobey the Scriptures and speak in tongues, and tongues that are not real or genuine--i.e., real languages.
DHK

 

The church at Corinth was a gentile church with both Jews and Gentils as "believers".

There is nothing in the 1Cor 14 chapter to suggest that "unbelievers were only Jewish".


verse 22:

"Wherefore tongues are a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not."

Again - this says nothing to support the idea that in Corinth - only the Jews did not believe the Gospel.

You are near a right road here. The true gift of tongues is a sign to unbelievers "period". That means the ungifted (not the jew only) coming into the church is targetted by the gift of tongues as they see it demonstrated.

Also as Paul said the ungifted - unbeliever is NOT directed to the Gospel IF when they hear tongues they simply here "garbled static".

Hence - it could not be what we have today. Rather it had to be the "Sign" to the unbeliever as seen in Acts 2.

Again you are falling off the track.

The question should be "is your church reaching the unchurched by having them hear a clear and distinct message via tonges that IS NOT some garbled clanging that means nothing to the ungifted?"

That is in fact the "thrust" of the 1Cor 14 message on tongues.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You cannot dissect verse 21 from 22, or you take verse 22 out of its context as you have done. Verse 22 talks of unbelievers, yes; but in the context of verse 21 it talks of the Jews to whom the tongues were a sign. The connecting word "Wherefore" draws the two verses together.

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

God spoke to "this people" (the Jews) with men of other tongues or languages as a sign that the gospel was genuine--that the message that the Apostles were preaching was indeed from God. One must remember that the time period in the Book of Acts is one of transition. One goes from the time of the ascension and Pentecost, to meeting in the Temple, to meeting occaisonally in synagogues, then in peoples' homes, and then finally in prisons, and just wherever they could as a persecuted people. There was a period of time just after the Day of Pentecost that lasted for about 50 years or less, that the spiritual gifts were very active. God gave supernatural gifts in the very beginning for various reasons.

1. It was the signs and wonders that the Apostles did that authenticated the Apostles as Apostles.
2. Tongues in particular were a sign to the unbelieving Jew that the message was authentic and genuine.
3. Some of the gifts (prophecy, tongues, and reveletory knowledge) were used by God as a means of revelation until the completed revelation (the Bible) had come, or was completed, at the end of the first century.
4. The early church was in need of these gifts more in the first century because the church was not yet established. To put it another way: Hindsight is better than foresight. It is easy to look back. But they did not have all the New Testament.
5. 1Cor.13:8-13 God said they would cease. The most natural interpretation of that passage, along with 1Cor.14:21,22 tells us that they have.

Back to verse 21: Tongues was a sign to the nation of Israel. You cannot divorce this verse from verse 22.
Verse 22 clearly says tongue are for a sign to the unbeliever. Tongues are for a sign to Israel. Tongues are a sign for the unbeliever. Tongues are for a sign to the Jew. Tongues are a sign for the unbeliever. You know I think that tongues are a sign for the unbelieving Jew.
DHK

 

DHK said:
While your at it, tell me why women disobey the Scriptures and speak in tongues, and tongues that are not real or genuine--i.e., real languages.

Music4Him says:
The question of women being silent in church has already been answered. Go back and read the proir post in this tread. I also did a google search typed in Jospheus(sp?) the historian for those days and he exspalined a little more detail why Paul had said that. If its alright I'll exsplain it in a nut shell....the unlearned women of Corith where (remember that Paul is starting the church ) bringing in their pagan music/worship into the church causing disorder. This was a new church with new people that had no idea the order of things. Have you done any searches to check out how Corinth was in those days?

We have liberty in the Lord......
2Cor 3:17 -
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

BTW, if the church you was going to caught fire and if only one woman noticed the fire, would she be permitted to speak? Do you think the men in the congrgation would be glad she yelled fire!

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Heres a story and you tell me if this lady did right? A church having a rivial and had a guest preacher to come and speak. The guest preacher, (while preaching) kept calling the children heathens several times and not one man in the congragation stood up and corrected him. (what would you do if someone called your child a little heathen?) Finally this little lady who had her husband and children sitting with her could not sit quietly anymore....She stood up in the middle of service and called the preacher on what he was saying and quoted the scripture...
Matt. 18:6 -
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

She didn't keep on preaching at him. She told him what he was saying wasn't right and quoted the scripture and sat back down.

Did she do right? Or should she of kept silent?

 

It doesn't say that a woman shouldn't speak in tongues!

If that is so, then Mary (mother of Jesus) and the other women were out of order when they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues, in the upper room, on the Day of Pentecost.

Acts 1:13&14

13) And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room,....

14) These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with THE WOMEN, and MARY the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

While in the upper room... Acts 2:2...there came a sound from heaven..

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Sorry, can't leave the women out!

MEE

 

Someone bibicaly define the word brethren.........is it ladies and gentlemen?.... Or perhaps brothers and sisters in Christ?.... or just of the male gender being kin as in brothers/male only? Or has asking a question ceased too?

Also the word woman as to bible context. Female....female and children........?

 

Yes, many. I check historical resources, commentaries, and other well documented references--not simply the results of an internet search where you can get the results of what anyone from any spurious background might post.

What liberty? The liberty to commit adultery? The liberty to murder? The liberty to steal? The liberty to disobey God's Word in any area? The liberty to speak in tongues when God's Word forbids women not to? Disobedience is disobedience no matter which way you look at it.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

What good would it do for a woman to speak in tongues without meaning when a church is on fire?? Will a bunch of gibberish save anyone? Even if it was a genuine foreign language; Will speaking Hindu directions to a Spanish or English audience in America (especially when there is an emergency)do any good? You have got to be kidding! Really you're not serious are you?

First of all the lady was absolutely wrong in what she did. I would never advocate a woman to do what she did. All children need to be saved just as all adults need to be saved. The man was preaching correctly. The children as well as you if you are not saved are heathens until they are saved. There is nothing wrong with that.
The verse that she quoted, she quoted out of context. Jesus wasn't referring to literal children. He was referring to spiritual children--the family of God--His own children by spiritual birith, that is those who are born again.
If you don't agree with what the preacher is preaching don't make a scene. Quietly leave. Go find some liberal church that doesn't preach the gospel, if that's not what you want to hear. Whatever you do don't make a scene.

The real point here is what good would it do for that woman to stand up to the preacher and tell him off in gibberish, the so-called speaking in tongues that you believe in. That is what 1Cor.14 is all about. Take everything in its context. Your out on rabbit trails.
DHK

 

MEE,

I believe your reference to the Mary, the mother of our Lord, in the Book of Acts plus 'the women' [Acts 1:14] is a better reference than mine, but people also might consider and place in their mind that the Apostle Paul in Galatians 3:28 says,

'The is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.'

The Lord God sees each of us as a human person. End story!

I am always amazed as to what people believe and do not believe. The interesting one under this topic is that some Christians believe that the 'gift of tongues' in Acts and I Corinthians 12 & 14 has to be in one of the nationalistic human languages. How stupid an idea is that one! But, I guess if a person is brought up in a tradition and has this idea pounded into his mind, for mega years, I guess they would believe this to be the zenith of truth in this matter.

My theory is that when the 'gift of tongues' is used and is genuine--that it is probably the language used in Heaven and/or by the angels. [I Corinthians 13:1a]

What do you think? We know that nationalistic languages are probably without exception not human languages, when it comes to the experience of 'speaking in tongues.' Although I do not have this gift, I am not willing to see Biblical truth expunged from the Bible, by those who say this phenomenon is now obsolete.