CAN DEMONS BE DETECTED TODAY??

Well Tam, looks as though we will be 'history' by morning....but that's OK.

MEE

 

The argument is a fairly good one, as it pertains to spiritual gifts. The gifts have ceased. </font>[/QUOTE]Nope.

Nope.

They could not do it either without direct command of Jesus and the empowerment of the Spirit.

I pointed out no such thing. (I’ve never heard of “the gift to raise the dead” unless you are referring to “the gift of miracles.”) I pointed out that the gifts are empowered and directed by God, and no one has the power to do exercise spiritual gifts outside the will of God. If God wills that I raised someone from the dead, I will be able to do it.

Period.

The gifts will cease when Christ returns.

Please show me scripture that clearly presents this view.

 

DHK,
Please read 1Cor.12:9 and tell me that all the gifts have ceased. Make a list and from 1Cor.12:8-10 of all those gifts mentioned and look and see if any are mentioned in the OT as well....i.e. Soloman asking for wisdom and knowledge. the faith of Abraham....ect.
I would have to say that the gifts are and have been here as long as the Spirit moved on the face of the waters....Gen.1:2 could this be logical?

BTW, speaking of the dead being raised...has anyone heard of the man in Africa that was raised from the dead? (I may pronounce the name wrong but I heard that Reignheart (pronounced -Rine heart) Bonkey was preaching in a building and in the basement laid a dead man who during the sevice was raised that had this on video. Also I think it was Andrew Womacks son who was also raised 4 hours after being pronounced dead. There might be something on the web somewhere about it? I never did a search but have heard this so you can take it as a grain of salt if you would like, but if you want to call the people I mentioned weirdos or something provide proof.

Faith.....don't leave home without it!
Music4Him

FYI, I am saying this in a even tone except where I tried to have some humor so I don't mind if you want to crack a smile, but please don't take what I typed out of context.

 

It's interesting looking over these posts to see how the discussion went from demons to tongues!

I think that some believe that the sign gifts ceased with the early church, not all gifts. The sign gifts were given so that followers of Jesus could be plainly identified. After the canon of scripture was complete, these gifts ceased (I'm giving the view of this). It's an interesting discussion but not one to divide over.

As far as raising the dead, those claims of what was done in Africa have not been objectively verified at all and personally, I do not believe it. For one thing, Reinhart is a Word Faith teacher and they teach heresies. I posted a bunch of links on this topic on another forum -- it's in the discussion about "what is a heretic" in the Other Religions/Doctrines forum. Since we can't cross post, I don't think I can copy that here and it's really off-topic a bit, I guess. The WOF teachers like to make claims like this but can never provide verification to an objective 3rd party.

I deal with the topic of demon possession in my ministry (which deals with the occult and the New Age) quite a bit. I don't believe Christians can be possessed. While we need to be aware there are demons and there is demonic power behind practices of the occult (like astrology, tarot, the Ouija board, even pendulums), I don't think that demons are behind all sins, as some believe. We can sin fine on our own with no help from demons!

 

For what it is worth, I agree.

 

Why can't you answer that question to your own satisfaction.

He is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. But that doesn't confine him to using the same methods that he used both in the Old Testament or in the first century, as you implied. He is the same in his nature--that He is God. That doesn't change. His attributes doesn't change not. He is God that doesn't lie (for example). But He does use different methods. He spoke to Moses face to face, and in a burning bush. He spoke to Balaam through the mouth of a donkey. Does he speak to you that way? Please tell me. I might even come down to witness the event.

Wrong again. But it is a convenient way for so-called faith healers to get out of healing people and in the most possible cruel way blame the "victim" for their lack of faith, saying the fault is all theirs for not being healed. It is a cruel, cruel thing to do, for a person who comes in hope to be healed. I can't think of anything more despicable. These guys ought to be taken out and shot, for defrauding the public. The sad thing is that you agree with their doctring.
Ten lepers came to Jesus. How many had the faith to believe. Just one.
According to the Scriptural method of healing today proscribed in James 5, who must have the faith in order to be healed. It is the prayer of "faith." Correct? Who prays that "prayer of faith? The sick or the pastor/faith healer? It is not the sick. God requires the faith healer or pastor to have the faith not the sick person. It is his lack of faith that ought to be blamed not the sick persons. Study your Bible a bit more.

[QUOE]Matt. 9-24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.[/QUOTE]
Who had the faith? The sick person or the one do the healing? You proved my point.

I believe that miracles and the such happens, but not in the way that they did in the New Testament. Have you seen any one walk on water lately?

Again, it is matter of what kind of miracle does kind perform today? In what way. Does God heal all that come to the so-called faith healer? No. He doesn't heal that way any more, and you don't have any evidence that he does.

You haven't provided any evidence that they haven't ceased. I am still waiting for that.
DHK

 

tamborine lady:

I appreciate your friendliness and outgoing personality, and I think you are one of the friendlier and more fun people on the board.

Having said that, I completely disagree with your theology. I agree with DHK so far 100%.

The problem I have with most charismatic theologians these days is that it seems they spend a lot more time using emotion and loose interpretation (fuzzy logic meets Scripture!) than exegesis and spiritual discernment in their defenses of experiential spirituality. To me, that reflects the basic problem of the whole theological system: adding "experience" to Scripture and giving it equal weight, often replacing Scripture entirely in the process.

My basic question is not, How does it make me feel? Or, I feel good! It's gotta be right!

but...

What saith the scriptures?

Well, bye all until Monday sometime (I'm taking a mini-vacation to see some friends graduate from seminary). I just wanted to put in my $0.02 so to speak (ok, it's only worth $0.01 really but I feel better getting it off my chest).

Cheers!
--
CurtX

 

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Wrong again. But it is a convenient way for so-called faith healers to get out of healing people and in the most possible cruel way blame the "victim" for their lack of faith, saying the fault is all theirs for not being healed. It is a cruel, cruel thing to do, for a person who comes in hope to be healed. I can't think of anything more despicable. These guys ought to be taken out and shot, for defrauding the public. The sad thing is that you agree with their doctring.
Ten lepers came to Jesus. How many had the faith to believe. Just one.
According to the Scriptural method of healing today proscribed in James 5, who must have the faith in order to be healed. It is the prayer of "faith." Correct? Who prays that "prayer of faith? The sick or the pastor/faith healer? It is not the sick. God requires the faith healer or pastor to have the faith not the sick person. It is his lack of faith that ought to be blamed not the sick persons. Study your Bible a bit more.
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But it is a convenient way for so-called faith healers to get out of healing people and in the most possible cruel way blame the "victim" for their lack of faith, saying the fault is all theirs for not being healed.
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Matthew 17:18-21~ And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. 19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? 20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. 21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
It was the faith healers problem in this case.....
but what about in this situation?
Matt.13:54-58 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? 57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. 58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Doesn't the "faith" factor flows both ways. I have gotten healed before without going to the elders of the church to pray for me. Just by simplely asking in Jesus name to be healed and beliving for my healing. Didn't Jesus say we can ask anything in Jesus name and he will do it?

John 14:12-14 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
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These guys ought to be taken out and shot, for defrauding the public.

You really feel that way DHK????

Jesus warned "Whoever is angry with his brother without cause, is in danger of judgment," (Matthew 5:22) and the Bible says, "He who hates his brother is a murderer," (1 John 3:15). God sees hatred in the heart to be as wicked as murder. We can violate His Law by attitude and intent.
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I would therefore ask that you study your bible a bit more also if you think it is all the faith healers fault for someone not being healed. So sad. :sad:
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BTW, concidering that this is a debate on "demons being detected today"....I have a question, could the gift of decerning the spirits be used to detect more than demons?

Music4Him

 

Yes.

 

My understanding of the phrase to "discern spirits" is that it is a gift to discern true and false teachings, since it is Satan who is behind false teachings. Or the discerning of what is operating from an evil spirit vs. operating from the Holy Spirit.

 

I don't have time to go through all of your post music4Him, but I would like you to consider this one. Sometimes we have to read closely what the context is. Jesus could not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief. Right?
The mighty works are miracles--miracles of all kinds: healing, as well as others. Jesus said: "An evil and adulterous generations seeks after a sign, but I say unto you that no sign shall be given unto them but the sign of Jonas."
The unbelief that Jesus was speaking of was not the unbelief of the poor sick people. It was the unbelief of the hardened hearts of the Pharisees, Saducees, scribes, lawyers, and even the common Jew. He would not perform miracles there (including healing) because the general populace would not believe that He was the Messiah no matter how many miracles he performed. What was the purpose of His miracles anyway: Here is what John tells us:

John 20:30-31 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The miracles that He did were to lead people to belief in Him that they might have eternal life. In that particular place they did not believe anyway, so he did not many miracles there. It was not the sick that did not believe; it was the general populace.
DHK

 

Yes DHK, but you can't say that its entirely the faith healers fault if a person don't get healed even Jesus told the woman with the issue of blood that it was her faith that made her whole.(Matt.9:22) So that is another reason why I think it goes both ways, thats all. ***Music shrugging her shoulders**
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And now back to Demons being detected today~

Thank you LadyEagle and Marcia, I was thinking that it was more than just the bad ones (demons that is). LOL
We definetly for sure need those 9 gifts of the Spirit for todays times.

Music4Him

 

No, spiritual warfare, discussed in Eph.610-18 and in variuos other passages, such as 2Cor.10:3-5, has nothing to do with the spiritual gifts that have ceased, and can be (and have been)demonstrated to have ceased.
DHK

 

Then so DHK you are saying that all 9 gifts of the Spirit have ceased?

1Cor.12:8-10 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

 

All of the above are gifts--supernatural gifts.
Faith is not a gift. One uses faith every day. Faith is confidence or trust. I have faith that when I put my key in the ignition of my car and turn it that my car will start. I have that confidence (faith) that it will do so. Now, it is possible that it will not. Does that mean my faith has failed. No, it just means that my car was made by fallible men who make mistakes, and we are all subject to the second law of thermodynamics, and must realize that things wear out over time, and must of a necessity fail.
However I can have confidence (faith) in a perfect God (his perfect Word) who has promised me that He will never fail. This is not a gift. It is confidence in the Word of another, and in this case the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. The more I read the Word of God, the more my faith in God will increase--for the deeper my realationship will develop. I will come to know God better. The better you know a person, the more confidence you are able to put in that person--so it is with God. That is how faith operates. It is not a gift, per se.

However, it is listed as a gift in the gifts of the Spirit. One must realize that all of these were supernatural gifts--gifts given on a supernatural plain. We do not and cannot understand all of them. We were not there. It is easier to understand the sign gifts such as healing where God gave the gift of healing to some, inasmuch as they had the power to heal all that came to them. That power is not available today. The gift of faith is not available either, though it is harder to define. God gave the ability to have an utmost confidence in his promises (not even knowing them all), for the New Testament was not yet complete, to some believers. This may have resulted in the conesequent power of God being manifested in different ways at different times. We are unsure, for the Bible is not clear. What is clear is that it was a supernatural gift that is not operative today--just as the other gifts are not operative today.
DHK

 

Faith is not a gift. One uses faith every day. Faith is confidence or trust. I have faith that when I put my key in the ignition of my car and turn it that my car will start. I have that confidence (faith) that it will do so. Now, it is possible that it will not. Does that mean my faith has failed. No, it just means that my car was made by fallible men who make mistakes, and we are all subject to the second law of thermodynamics, and must realize that things wear out over time, and must of a necessity fail.
However I can have confidence (faith) in a perfect God (his perfect Word) who has promised me that He will never fail. This is not a gift. It is confidence in the Word of another, and in this case the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. The more I read the Word of God, the more my faith in God will increase--for the deeper my realationship will develop. I will come to know God better. The better you know a person, the more confidence you are able to put in that person--so it is with God. That is how faith operates. It is not a gift, per se.


Faith, is mentioned in the fruit of the Spirit
(Gal.5:22) as a fruit, as well as the gifts of the Spirit (1Cor.12) as a gift.
(Heb.11:1) Faith is the substance of thinks hoped for, the eveidence of things not seen.

However, it is listed as a gift in the gifts of the Spirit. One must realize that all of these were supernatural gifts--gifts given on a supernatural plain. We do not and cannot understand all of them. We were not there. It is easier to understand the sign gifts such as healing where God gave the gift of healing to some, inasmuch as they had the power to heal all that came to them. That power is not available today. The gift of faith is not available either, though it is harder to define. God gave the ability to have an utmost confidence in his promises (not even knowing them all), for the New Testament was not yet complete, to some believers. This may have resulted in the conesequent power of God being manifested in different ways at different times. We are unsure, for the Bible is not clear. What is clear is that it was a supernatural gift that is not operative today--just as the other gifts are not operative today.
DHK

Then DHK what about this verse 1Cor.2:14 well acually read 1Cor.2:1-16 and tell me what you think. It also say to be spiritually minded in (Rom.8:6). BTW did you look in the OT at some of the OT people that seemed to have some of the same Spirit as mentioned in 1Cor.12? Elisha and Elijah and some of those prophets that prophesised, Solomen and he reciving wisdom and knowledge......

Well let me know what you come up with.

Music4Him

 

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
This passage is speaking of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. The natural man refers to the unsaved man. He cannot understand the things of God, such as the Word of God, because he is not saved and does not have the Holy Spirit to illuminate his heart.
Remember Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch?

"Understandest thou what thou readest?"
"How can I except some man should guide me."
Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Philip understood the Scriptures and the Ethiopian Eunuch, though he was reading the Scriptures, could not understand them—until Philip explained them to Him. Once the Eunuch was saved, and had the Holy Spirit indwelling within him, he was given the same power of understanding that Philip had.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
--Again, the passage is speaking of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit which comes at the point of salvation. It is not speaking of faith, per se. Believers have the Spirit of God which enables them to understand the things of God.

In regards to the OT prophets such as Elijah and others, you are confusing faith with the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God came upon the prophets, and they prophesied. God worked in different ways in the Old Testament as Heb.1:1 tells us. For example, the Holy Spirit came upon Samson, and he was able to do supernatural feats of strength. As the Spirit came upon David, he became one of the most skilled musicians in all of Israel.
DHK