What Jesus knew

I agree with Mercury on this. (Though I am cautiously optimistic on doing such a thing after seeing some of the things posted on the evoutionist threads)

Mercury gives these "proofs" and they are valid.

(Really - Literally true).

Jesus said in John 14 that He took the words that His father GAVE him and it is THESE that he spoke. Jesus said "OF MY OWN SELF I can say nothing".

It was His connection with God while in human form on earth - and emptied of His "powers" that He spoke.

NOTICE that when Satan tempts Christ -- in the first temptation he does NOT ask Christ to SIN (as any of us know it) rather he suggests that Christ USE His God-power -- THAT ALONE would have been wrong. So that tells us that although He HAD IT -- He was not supposed to be using it.

Of course you must believe this REALLY happened and that the DETAILS of scripture are "trustworthy" EVEN though science does not come up with Satan in a jar, nor does science SHOW us "incarnation science" - it is beyond them.

("Creation science" as in the "CREATOR's science" is also beyond athiest evolutionists as it turns out)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Never miss the opportunity to get back to that foundational point! That's my motto!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Logically, one must agree that the physical brain of Jesus was unable to contain the infinite omniscience that is His in heaven.

Even if He was in complete control of swapping knowledge in and out of His physical brain, having only a finite lifetime and a finite sized brain means infinity couldn't fit in the physical incarnation part of Jesus.

Jesus is more than His physical incarnation, of course, but isn't it exactly the physical incarnation we are talking about here?

So add my vote to the consensus.

 

This is a challenging topic.

Jesus was always God even as he lived as a man, however. I believe that at certain times he set aside his omniscience, but I would stop short of saying that he could or did not have omniscience at all while he was on earth.

Jesus performed miracles that showed his power -- in most cases, it seems he had this power as part of his deity. After all, in Matt 8 he rebuked the sea and wind and they ceased (this is the passage God used to open my eyes to who Christ really was and what I was reading when I was saved, btw).

Jesus also often knew the thoughts of others -- there are numerous passages where it says Jesus knew the thoughts of the disciples or of the Pharisees. This is part of his omniscience.

I agree with Mercury's points but would say that there is no solid evidence that Jesus set aside omniscience completely or at all times.

 

If Jesus did his stuff without going through God and the Holy Spirit then the atonement was meaningless.

 

I would agree (with Mercury even!! imagine that!!) that Jesus put down his omnicence to become human - otherwise we may have had stories of Jesus coming out of the womb and saying hello to those around him.

John Chapter 5 deals with these things very well -


Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

 

I didn't say he had partial omniscience. What I was suggesting was that sometimes he had omnisience and sometimes not. I don't that is illogical or an oxymoron.

I don't know a passage that says Jesus had faith. He did not have to have faith - he was God (the Son). Are you saying Jesus knew the thoughts of people because God was feeding him that knowledge?

The apostles were able to heal and drive out demons because Jesus gave them that power at a specific point (see Matt 10.1).

I think that what is bothering me here is a possible tendency to emphasize Jesus' humanity at the expense of his deity. In his incarnation, he was always and at all times fully man and God. He added humanity to his deity when he incarnated; he did not give up any deity to become man. Whether he gave up certain powers, the Bible does not say. The only support for this is the verse about not knowing the time of his return. But I don't think we can infer from this that he had no omniscience at any other point on earth.

I think this would be a good topic for the Baptist Theology and Bible Study forum. I don't know what it's doing in this forum.

 

Sorry, I see from Mercury's profile that is not Baptist and had to post here.

 

Hello, Mercury,

Thanks for your thoughts.

I think Phil 2 only says that Jesus set aside his glory (which was later revealed on the Mount of Transfiguration to 3 disciples). It is talking about Jesus humbling himself to incarnate as a baby.

I agree that Lk 2.52 and Mk 13.32 support what you are saying but I am still not entirely convinced Jesus set aside his omniscience at all times.

I am not sure of the faith thing, either. I think Jesus modelled prayer and communication with God, but did not need faith.

I'd like to have more feedback on this and will start a thread in the Baptist Theology forum. I hope we get some helpful responses!

 

As I said earlier --

NOTICE that when Satan tempts Christ -- in the first temptation he does NOT ask Christ to SIN (as any of us know it) rather he suggests that Christ USE His God-power -- THAT ALONE would have been wrong. So that tells us that although He HAD IT -- He was not supposed to be using it.


Eating bread is not a sin. Eating bread when Satan says to eat bread - is not a sin. God does not ALLOW Satan to define sin, satan can only tempt us to do what GOD defines as sin.

Jesus was under "a rule" that He could not use HIS power as God - on earth. WE don't have that as a rule. IF you could TURN a rock into stone and eat it after days of not eating - it would not be a sin. But you can't so we are stuck depending on other means for bread.

However the point is that although Christ clearly HAD the power to turn the stone into bread (to create LIFE as GOD) He refused to go against His Father's will - He did not sin and USE that power.

Why is this important?! Because that means that Christ had the "power" to vaporize His tormentors in a micro-second. To make them "as if they had never existed" or at the very least "to bend their current of thought slightly" during those hours of torture to Himself -- and He did not.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I don't agree with this statement. I think that WHO Jesus was never changed... but he chose to limit himself severly by becoming a man. He made himself subject to his own rules ... allowing himself to be governed, rather than governing. Really, he was allowing himself to be judged by the same judgement we all face. I think that he had open lines of communication with God as no other ever has because his state of 'one accord' with the Father was unbroken until his death.

We can see in John 5 that Jesus - on his own in his humanity - could do nothing - he had none of the power of his deity as a man:

Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

In fact, the ONLY thing that Jesus ever honored or respected in men was faith. The only thing that ever made Jesus marvel at, for example, was a person's faith.

I think Merc is right... I think Jesus had perfect faith and was a distict and clear example of what is possible FOR US if we only have faith. We can do the same things Jesus did (sans the dying on the cross for humanity, of course) and greater if we have faith.

Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

There is no biblical support for Jesus having faith. And there is no support that he gave up deity to become man. I see from your profile that you are word-faith, and that explains your views. But these views are not Biblical (that Jesus was not God when incarnated) and not part of the historic Christian faith.

Jesus never denied his deity; in fact he affirmed it many times while on earth.

 

Well Jesus DID have faith and we are to "WALK as HE Walked" 1john 2:3-7.

Jesus said "My God My God WHY have you forsaken Me?"

Jesus said "IF IT be possible LET this cup pass from ME"

Jesus said "Peter I HAVE PRAYED for you that your faith fail not"

Jesus said "OF my OWN self I can do NOTHING".

Jesus PLACED himself in the position of depending on the Father AND He said He was doing that every thing on several occassions.

I think we can believe Him on that point.

In Phil 2 and Heb 5 we find Christ LEARNING obedience through things He suffered. EVEN to the point of "strong crying with tears".

He was the ultimate example of faith.

But it is not a question of denying His deity and being confused about it. FAit was in REMAINING in darkness and NOT using infinite wisdom of HIS OWN to solve His problems.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob, I have yet to see support from the Bible for this. He was God the Son and God does not need faith.

I am appreciating your feedback and Mercury's post as well. Not much is happening with this in the Baptist forum unfortunately.

 

You are right that God is infinite in knowledge, power, glory and has no need of anything.

I don't claim to fully grasp the incarnation of God the Son so what I do is "observe the limits" that scripture sets for Christ.

And when we observe Christ in tears and "strong crying" (Heb 5) and "learning obedience through the things He suffered" we KNOW this is not the infinite God-being LEARNING someting He did not know before NOR even "being in want".

So it can only be that God the Son is deferring His God attributes so he CAN suffer as a human.

Once we go there - then we can truly understand why He says "I do NOT speak My OWN word" and why He says "What I hear - that is what I speak".

His entire life was one of trust and dependance on the Father - SHOWING us the way that we are to walk. He continually pointed out that He was giving us an example and that we are to follow it.

Why would Christ need to pray to the Father and "make a request"?

Christ Himself said of His own second coming that ONLY the Father knew the time.

This could only be true if Christ was voluntarily deferring some knowledge.

However - I do not claim to fully understand the incarnation or how it worked.

In Christ,

bob