What Jesus knew

[Gup20]

There is no biblical support for Jesus having faith.

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

I don't recall Jesus marvelling at ANY OTHER human accomplishment whatsoever.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Clearly, the faith of Abraham was counted as righteousness whereas we know that of his own works he could do nothing. Jesus was the same - he said so -

Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

This is a pretty astounding statement. Jesus said he could do nothing on his own. It was only the Father's will that he could perform or accomplish on the earth.

So then... could it be that Jesus was still all knowing and he just knew everything because he was still completely God, right? Not quite -

Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

So... Jesus had to be shown these things by the Father... he didn't already know them by omniscience. Does this mean that Jesus wasn't God? No... it simply means that he had put down a part of his glory to become a man. He was still who he was. Just didn't have the same power.

Yet - you make a good point - was it a product of faith? Or was it a product of WHO he was?

Mat 7:29 For he taught them as [one] having authority, and not as the scribes.

Hrm... Abraham had faith and it was counted to righteousness... but did Jesus need faith? Or was he the righteousness of God incarnate on the earth?

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Phl 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

So I would conceed that there really is no scripture (unless someone else can show us some) that describes Jesus as having 'faith'. Rather, we are to have faith in Jesus as he IS the righteousness of God.

I see from your profile that you are word-faith, and that explains your views.

What does that mean? Mercury brought it up... he's a Mennenite, and I was simply repeating what he stated... so the point isn't a 'word of faith' point, but rather something Merc said that I was re-stating for discussion. Also, would this discussion go anywhere if I said "well you're a baptist so I can see why you would say that" as an argument against whatever you said? Ad hominem is not a meaningful argument.

But these views are not Biblical (that Jesus was not God when incarnated) and not part of the historic Christian faith.

I don't think that anyone here is advocating that Jesus was not God when 'incarnated'. Simply that he set aside some of his Godly attributes to become a man.

Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Who Jesus was (the son of God) didn't change when he became a man, but what he could DO as a man (his deistic power) was throttled. As we saw, he said he could do nothing of himself, but only the will of the Father.

Jesus never denied his deity; in fact he affirmed it many times while on earth.

We are not denying his diety either, however we are saying that he did not have all the attributes of God the Father (in this case omnicience) as a man. He willingly gave that up to become a man and experience death in our stead.

in fact he affirmed it many times while on earth.

While I don't disagree with what you actually stated (as opposed to what you inferred) - I would like to point out here a critical error in your logic. You are assuming that because Jesus claimed to be the "son of God" that this means that he was endued with all the power of God the Father on earth as a man. I would be interested in any scripture you might provide to back up that inference.

His entire life was one of trust and dependance on the Father - SHOWING us the way that we are to walk. He continually pointed out that He was giving us an example and that we are to follow it.

This is absolutely true. However, to answer the question 'did Jesus need to have faith' we must first define faith. Faith is the "substance of things hoped for, and the evidence in things not seen". We have to assume that the commication lines between Jesus and the Father were wide open. Therefore is it safe to say that Jesus - as he said - could do nothing of himself but only that which the Father tells him? Jesus said "I can do only that which I see the Father do" - so is this really something that Jesus hadn't seen? Is it really 'faith' or hope in the unknown? I don't know if it is.

Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

If Jesus was spiritually alive and in 'one accord' with the Father as we all believe he was as God incarnate on earth... and that there was no separation from God until Jesus' death (my god, my god why have you forsaken me) could Jesus have even had faith? No... he is the author and finisher of our faith... he is the one in whom we have faith.

We are the righteousness of God in Christ... that means Christ is the righteousness of God - if we are in Christ, we are righteous according to the Father. The just shall live by faith... faith in what? In Jesus. Jesus was just, but did he need to believe in himself in order to be Just?

Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Does this mean that Jesus had faith because God the Father was pleased with him, or does it mean that Jesus had a different standard than the rest of us because he is God, and has no need to believe in himself in order to please the Father?

 

[Mercury]

Gup, I think the confusion is over semantics. What does "fully God" mean? Does it mean being God, or possessing all the attributes of God? By the first, Jesus was fully God; by the second, he wasn't (and this holds even if one believes that Jesus only set aside his omniscience on certain occasions: even then Jesus did not always have all his divine attributes). I agree with you that Jesus limited himself in becoming human, and I think casting off his omniscience and omnipotence was a necessary part of that. All he said or did that was beyond normal human capabilities came from his oneness with the Father, not from his own divine attributes. But, I still consider Jesus to be fully God even when he didn't have those attributes. As Bob said, the incarnation of God isn't something we can fully grasp.

Anyway, I hope that explains my position better. I misunderstood yours in your earlier post (and for that reason I only indirectly responded to it), but based on what you wrote now, I think we're pretty much in agreement on this part. I think it would be helpful if Marcia clarified exactly what she disagrees with; perhaps then we can research that based on Scripture.

[ August 26, 2004, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Mercury ]

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Gup20:
Faith is the "substance of things hoped for, and the evidence in things not seen". [...] Jesus said "I can do only that which I see the Father do" - so is this really something that Jesus hadn't seen? Is it really 'faith' or hope in the unknown? I don't know if it is.

Jesus may have seen what he had to do, but I don't think he saw the end result. If he did, he probably would have known the time of his second coming.

Faith is about being sure of the end result in spite of not seeing it. God spoke directly to Abraham, so Abraham didn't need faith to believe in God, but rather to trust that what God said would come to fruition, even if it didn't happen in his lifetime. I think we see the same kind of faith between Jesus and the Father when Jesus is praying in the garden of Gethsemane. If he had fully seen the end result, why would he pray, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me"? Why would his will not be the same as the will of his Father's, causing him to say, "yet not as I will, but as You will"? I think Matthew 26:39 is strong evidence that Jesus had faith in what he did not fully see. I believe Jesus had faith in the Father and so consented to follow his will, including doing what the Father had shown him he must do.

 

[Marcia]

Thanks for the posts, Bob, Gup, and Mercury.

As far as was God pleased with Jesus because of his faith, we don't know. God didn't say why he was pleased with Jesus, but we do know that Jesus was sinless, so it could have been that God was pleased with that, and with the fact that Jesus was fulfilling his mission on earth.

I guess I am still pondering this -- I have to ask if it is logical and consistent with scripture to say that Jesus set aside his attributes as God to incarnate. I do not think the Phil 2 passage teaches this at all, but teaches that Jesus set aside his glory in heaven with the Father to become humble and incarnate as a man.

I think that scriptures show he depended on the Father because he was submitting Himself as a model for us and his role was to be obedient to the Father while on earth.

I would have to think about, research, and study it more before I can say with surety that Jesus set aside his omniscience at all times on earth.
I appreciate the feedback on this thread. It is very helpful.

 

[Kamoroso]

Matt 3:16-17 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Matt 12:17-21 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.


Matt 17:4-7 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.


Mark 1:10-11 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Luke 3:21-22 21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.


Col 1:13-20 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


2 Pet 1:16-18 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Kieth

 

[Gup20]

Jesus may have seen what he had to do, but I don't think he saw the end result. If he did, he probably would have known the time of his second coming.

Since I am "a word-faither" ((winks at Marcia)) I know that Hebrews Chapters 1 and 2 are the "All-Faith hall of fame".

Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I think Jesus did know the end result of his work on the cross. Clearly, he also gave prophecy regarding himself in the future tense, so we know also that he was aware of what was to come for him.

Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
Mar 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Jesus knew his destiny - at least what he was there to do and what was in scripture for him to accomplish.

I think we are all agreed then that Jesus did not put off who he was - that he was always God... but that he did put off a portion of his deistic glory to become a man.

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Gup20:
I think Jesus did know the end result of his work on the cross. Clearly, he also gave prophecy regarding himself in the future tense, so we know also that he was aware of what was to come for him.

Abraham knew he would be made into a great nation too. The question is whether Jesus knew it by faith and trust in what the Father revealed to him or because he saw it completely.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Hmmph its all semantecs. If I open my eyes and walk about the room and don't bump into a chair - because I could see the chair and walk around it - there is faith involved in my walking process, but it is so complete precisely BECAUSE I can see clearly where to walk!

In that sense, Jesus could be said to have had faith. The alternative, he isn't walking by "faith" as we do, because we just don't see as clearly as He sees, is certainly NOT HIS FAULT . . . and saying he "didn't have faith" is kind of an unnatural, queer way to express His complete confidence and ability to procede perfectly according to GOd's plan.

 

[Gup20]

Abraham knew he would be made into a great nation too. The question is whether Jesus knew it by faith and trust in what the Father revealed to him or because he saw it completely.

I will admit... I am going round and round on that part of this question. Did Jesus have faith? Did Jesus need faith? If he did have faith, what was it in?

It's certainly a very deep subject to which I don't have a definitive answer. Everyone has very good points here so far.

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Mercury
Abraham knew he would be made into a great nation too. The question is whether Jesus knew it by faith and trust in what the Father revealed to him or because he saw it completely.

Abraham knew that only because God told him directly and we are shown that in the Bible.

Too many passages show that Jesus foretold His death and resurrection and there is no indication it was because God spoke to Him. I think if God had spoken to Him directly to give him this info, we would know that from scripture. Certainly the point that Jesus had to get revelations from God about the future would be important enough to show us in scripture? I realize that is not a solid argument but it's just a thought I have.

Posted by Gup:
Since I am "a word-faither" ((winks at Marcia)) I know that Hebrews Chapters 1 and 2 are the "All-Faith hall of fame".

Gup, don't you mean Hebrews 11?

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Abraham knew that only because God told him directly and we are shown that in the Bible.

Bingo!

Too many passages show that Jesus foretold His death and resurrection and there is no indication it was because God spoke to Him. I think if God had spoken to Him directly to give him this info, we would know that from scripture. Certainly the point that Jesus had to get revelations from God about the future would be important enough to show us in scripture?

The verses have been quoted many times already:

John 7:16: "So Jesus answered them and said, 'My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.' "

John 12:49: "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it." (Earlier in this same chapter is one of the places where Jesus predicted his death.)

John 14:10: "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."

 

[Marcia]

Good points, Mercury. Especially Jn 12.49.