13th apostle...Founder of Catholicism

Jim --

Let us take your supposition regarding Constantine. I would say that it therefore presupposes that prior to the fourth century and the Nicene Council, the Church was NOT corrupted and that Constantine was the driving force behind the eventual hijacking and corruption of the Church.

This said, then, the burden is NOT on me to prove that Constantine DID indeed hijack and corrupt the Church, but on YOU to prove that Jesus did not fulfill His promise to the Church and keep Constantine from doing so.

You conveniently did not respond to my challenge to observe an Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic Liturgy?

Scared to?

Maybe you will see something that will change your mind regarding the Jewish roots of the Church Catholic.

This is going nowhere. We are not going to agree. Period. I REFUSE to insult my Lord by even hinting at the idea that He would abandon His Bride to the lies of the evil one as Adam did to Eve. And you are so fear stricken by the idea that the Catholic Faith might be right that you will not approach anything with a "what if?" attitude.

So we are at loggerheads here.

Brother Ed

 

Does the term Reformation mean anything to you?

 

Yes.

It is another neat way of spelling

R*E*B*E*L*L*I*O*N

Tuor --

Find me ONE, Just ONE Scripture in the whole of the Bible which says that if we do not like what the Church is teaching we have a divine perogative and right to leave and start our own Church.

One will do nicely.

Thank you.

Brother Ed

[ November 17, 2002, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: CatholicConvert ]

 

I haven't had time to read all the coments simply the catolic church is some christian beleafs some judazirs and pagen read 2Tim 4:1-5 notice the forbid marriage part comes letter as the verse clearly tells Preist before about 250AD did get married and that is proven also notice abstinence from food the KJV and others say meat sound like lent ? no wonder the catholic church is always questioning the scriptures

 

CC,

You have yet to establish that the Catholic Church is the true Church. Besides, how did the Eastern Orthodox come into being?

R*E*B*E*L*L*I*O*N

Right back at yah.

 

the catholic church is not a church of jesus christ it is a goverment and never was the first church a church is a group beliveing in the lord jesus christ for salvation at least a christian church if you study you will see in revelation that the seven churches are mentioned not the church read about cardinal hosius president of the council of trent 1545-1563 he admits baptist were murdered for at least 1200 years there is proof of baptist church back to the apostolic times before the start of the roman catholic church your church murder anyone who would not renounce there faith in jesus and come under a pope

 

Bump

[ November 18, 2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

What "facts"?

 

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

And Christ's teachings on Church discipline fit in very nicely, also. Why wouldn't they apply to a heretical preacher ?

It has nothing to do with what we like. If your not preaching the Gospel, woe unto you.

[ November 18, 2002, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

Matthew 7

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

John 10

1 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."

1 Corinthians 10:14

Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

 

I guess I missed where you proved this "fact". Could you offer your proofs again?

Ditto.

Ditto.

If the "historical information" that you are referring to is the single article that you cited at the start of this thread, I have already done so by pointing out to you other parts of that article which contradict your position.

You are holding out that article as though it supports your postion. It does not. It says exactly the opposite of what you wish for it to say.

BTW, I am Ron (trying2understand),
CatholicConvert is Ed. We are not the same person.

[ November 18, 2002, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

Jim, the author of the very article which you rely upon came to very different conclusions and offered evidence contrary to your position which you simply choose to dismiss.

You are a long way from making your case.

Why don't you take one of your above claims and offer your evidence? You have not done so as yet.

Ron

 

Clint --

Honestly, with all due respect, I have seldom seen a worse torturing of Scripture in my life.

Using the same methodology you just used, I can prove that we must commit suicide by picking random Bible verses to try to make a point:

Mt 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Lu 10:37 Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Joh 13:27 Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

There is no verse in anything you quoted which says that we are to leave the Church. These verses warn us as individuals to be careful of our ways, especially around those who present to us other ways of supposedly attaining eternal glory.

That was a rather sad spectacle, Clint, and not up to your usual standards.

Brother Ed

 

Not so, Ed. We are told that there will be false teachers who will teach heresies. When this is the case we should remove ourselves from those situations. Follow Christ, don't follow men!

I hardly quoted single verses. Two of my examples were whole passages. Unless I move on to whole chapters or Books, I can't quote much more in context.

I am grateful that I am not in a church situation from which there is no escaping false teachings. You may want to check out some of the passages I cited and see how the Catholic doctrine stacks up against them.

[ November 18, 2002, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

Instead of flat denial Ed, take the verses that Clint posted, and tell us verse by verse which each one means.
DHK

 

You are claiming that these false prophets arise from within the Church, but this verse does not state that at all. Yes, the word "inwardly" is used, but that has no bearing your thesis. The false prophets "come to you," which means from NOT HERE, but from ELSEWHERE. They appear good, but are dangerous underneath. Self explanatory, for they are FALSE PROPHETS. This means to not go off and join them in their false prophecies, but STAY PUT. This doesn't provide for your thesis.

Cut down the bad tree does not mean to plant a new forest.

The Church does not guarantee salvation; it merely provides the means, Jesus Christ.

We must go through Jesus Christ to be saved. This doesn't speak of means to build a new Church.

You are correct. People should not worship false gods. What does this have to do with the Catholic Church? Nothing. Are individuals worshipping false gods? Of course; that's the concequences of God giving us free will. People in all of your churches follow false gods; we do that every time we break a commandment. Thank God for mercy!

God bless,

Grant