13th apostle...Founder of Catholicism

[CatholicConvert]

Jim --

Let us take your supposition regarding Constantine. I would say that it therefore presupposes that prior to the fourth century and the Nicene Council, the Church was NOT corrupted and that Constantine was the driving force behind the eventual hijacking and corruption of the Church.

This said, then, the burden is NOT on me to prove that Constantine DID indeed hijack and corrupt the Church, but on YOU to prove that Jesus did not fulfill His promise to the Church and keep Constantine from doing so.

You conveniently did not respond to my challenge to observe an Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic Liturgy?

Scared to?

Maybe you will see something that will change your mind regarding the Jewish roots of the Church Catholic.

This is going nowhere. We are not going to agree. Period. I REFUSE to insult my Lord by even hinting at the idea that He would abandon His Bride to the lies of the evil one as Adam did to Eve. And you are so fear stricken by the idea that the Catholic Faith might be right that you will not approach anything with a "what if?" attitude.

So we are at loggerheads here.

Brother Ed

 

[Eladar]

This said, then, the burden is NOT on me to prove that Constantine DID indeed hijack and corrupt the Church, but on YOU to prove that Jesus did not fulfill His promise to the Church and keep Constantine from doing so.

Does the term Reformation mean anything to you?

 

[CatholicConvert]

Yes.

It is another neat way of spelling

R*E*B*E*L*L*I*O*N

Tuor --

Find me ONE, Just ONE Scripture in the whole of the Bible which says that if we do not like what the Church is teaching we have a divine perogative and right to leave and start our own Church.

One will do nicely.

Thank you.

Brother Ed

[ November 17, 2002, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: CatholicConvert ]

 

[Mickes]

I haven't had time to read all the coments simply the catolic church is some christian beleafs some judazirs and pagen read 2Tim 4:1-5 notice the forbid marriage part comes letter as the verse clearly tells Preist before about 250AD did get married and that is proven also notice abstinence from food the KJV and others say meat sound like lent ? no wonder the catholic church is always questioning the scriptures

 

[Eladar]

CC,

You have yet to establish that the Catholic Church is the true Church. Besides, how did the Eastern Orthodox come into being?

R*E*B*E*L*L*I*O*N

Right back at yah.

 

[Mickes]

the catholic church is not a church of jesus christ it is a goverment and never was the first church a church is a group beliveing in the lord jesus christ for salvation at least a christian church if you study you will see in revelation that the seven churches are mentioned not the church read about cardinal hosius president of the council of trent 1545-1563 he admits baptist were murdered for at least 1200 years there is proof of baptist church back to the apostolic times before the start of the roman catholic church your church murder anyone who would not renounce there faith in jesus and come under a pope

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
Either Cathoicism is exactly what it says it is....

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Jim, you have said this several times now. Perhaps it would be helpful to state exactly what it is that you believe "Catholicism says it is" and your evidence for it.

Then we can better decide if you have proved it to be false.

Bump

[ November 18, 2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
Now I have found historical facts that are seemingly destructive to Catholic claim. You need to either accept those facts or refute them. Or you can offer a new interpretation of the facts according to your understanding.

What "facts"?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:

Find me ONE, Just ONE Scripture in the whole of the Bible which says that if we do not like what the Church is teaching we have a divine perogative and right to leave and start our own Church.

One will do nicely.

Thank you.

Brother Ed

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

And Christ's teachings on Church discipline fit in very nicely, also. Why wouldn't they apply to a heretical preacher ?

It has nothing to do with what we like. If your not preaching the Gospel, woe unto you.

[ November 18, 2002, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

[jimraboin]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Jim --

Let us take your supposition regarding Constantine. I would say that it therefore presupposes that prior to the fourth century and the Nicene Council, the Church was NOT corrupted and that Constantine was the driving force behind the eventual hijacking and corruption of the Church.

This said, then, the burden is NOT on me to prove that Constantine DID indeed hijack and corrupt the Church, but on YOU to prove that Jesus did not fulfill His promise to the Church and keep Constantine from doing so.

You conveniently did not respond to my challenge to observe an Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic Liturgy?

Scared to?

Maybe you will see something that will change your mind regarding the Jewish roots of the Church Catholic.

This is going nowhere. We are not going to agree. Period. I REFUSE to insult my Lord by even hinting at the idea that He would abandon His Bride to the lies of the evil one as Adam did to Eve. And you are so fear stricken by the idea that the Catholic Faith might be right that you will not approach anything with a "what if?" attitude.

So we are at loggerheads here.

Brother Ed

Ed,

Just because "you say" something isn't sufficient enough of a rebut to remove the facts introduced. I could also counter your personal rebut with one of my own leading to an argument on our own opinions. No. What you need to do is substantiate your personal assertion with historical information. Information superior to what I have provided that not only removes my counterclaim but also directly supports Catholic position. To date you have not done this. You need to.

Fact, all things Catholic have come through a single source...Constantine and Eusebius(and his contemporaries). Everything.

Fact, Constantine had all power at founding of Catholicism during Council of Nicaea.

As Rome's Emperor, Constantine had the means, motive and will to hyjack Israel's form of Christiantiy to serve Rome's design.

You need to remove this counter through superior historical information.

Jim

[ November 18, 2002, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: jimraboin ]

 

[rsr]

Let's at least get it right if we're going to do the history thing.

Mickes said:

... read about cardinal hosius president of the council of trent 1545-1563 he admits baptist were murdered for at least 1200 years ...

At the time of Hosius' death, there were no congregations called Baptists.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:

Find me ONE, Just ONE Scripture in the whole of the Bible which says that if we do not like what the Church is teaching we have a divine perogative and right to leave and start our own Church.

Matthew 7

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

John 10

1 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."

1 Corinthians 10:14

Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
Fact, all things Catholic have come through a single source...Constantine and Eusebius(and his contemporaries). Everything.

I guess I missed where you proved this "fact". Could you offer your proofs again?

Fact, Constantine had all power at founding of Catholicism during Council of Nicaea.

Ditto.

As Rome's Emperor, Constantine had the means, motive and will to hyjack Israel's form of Christiantiy to serve Rome's design.

Ditto.

You need to remove this counter through superior historical information.

If the "historical information" that you are referring to is the single article that you cited at the start of this thread, I have already done so by pointing out to you other parts of that article which contradict your position.

You are holding out that article as though it supports your postion. It does not. It says exactly the opposite of what you wish for it to say.

BTW, I am Ron (trying2understand),
CatholicConvert is Ed. We are not the same person.

[ November 18, 2002, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

[jimraboin]

Gentlemen! Gentlemen!

This thread is not about Trent. It is about whether Catholic claim is true... Or whether Catholic religion itself was created by Constantine and Eusebius. Let's try to keep our thinking here.

Look. Did Constantine have all power during the year Council of Nicaea was called to order? Yes or No.

Was he "greedy for praise"? Yes or No.

Did Constantine believe he was the "center" apostle? Yes or No.

Did he have the means to hyjack Israel's form of Christianty? Yes or No.

Did he have the motive to hyjack Israel's form of Christianity? Yes or No.

Did all things Catholic come through Constantine and Eusebius(or his contemporaries)? Yes or No.

I believe the answer is "Yes" to all the above per the historical information provided and at all of our disposals. If you disagree, then refute my counterclaim with solid historical information.

How much clearer can I be?

Jim

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
Gentlemen! Gentlemen!

This thread is not about Trent. It is about whether Catholic claim is true... Or whether Catholic religion itself was created by Constantine and Eusebius. Let's try to keep our thinking here.

Look. Did Constantine have all power during the year Council of Nicaea was called to order? Yes or No.

Was he "greedy for praise"? Yes or No.

Did Constantine believe he was the "center" apostle? Yes or No.

Did he have the means to hyjack Israel's form of Christianty? Yes or No.

Did he have the motive to hyjack Israel's form of Christianity? Yes or No.

Did all things Catholic come through Constantine and Eusebius(or his contemporaries)? Yes or No.

I believe the answer is "Yes" to all the above per the historical information provided and at all of our disposals. If you disagree, then refute my counterclaim with solid historical information.

How much clearer can I be?

Jim

Jim, the author of the very article which you rely upon came to very different conclusions and offered evidence contrary to your position which you simply choose to dismiss.

You are a long way from making your case.

Why don't you take one of your above claims and offer your evidence? You have not done so as yet.

Ron

 

[CatholicConvert]

Clint --

Honestly, with all due respect, I have seldom seen a worse torturing of Scripture in my life.

Using the same methodology you just used, I can prove that we must commit suicide by picking random Bible verses to try to make a point:

Mt 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Lu 10:37 Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Joh 13:27 Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

There is no verse in anything you quoted which says that we are to leave the Church. These verses warn us as individuals to be careful of our ways, especially around those who present to us other ways of supposedly attaining eternal glory.

That was a rather sad spectacle, Clint, and not up to your usual standards.

Brother Ed

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Not so, Ed. We are told that there will be false teachers who will teach heresies. When this is the case we should remove ourselves from those situations. Follow Christ, don't follow men!

I hardly quoted single verses. Two of my examples were whole passages. Unless I move on to whole chapters or Books, I can't quote much more in context.

I am grateful that I am not in a church situation from which there is no escaping false teachings. You may want to check out some of the passages I cited and see how the Catholic doctrine stacks up against them.

[ November 18, 2002, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[DHK]

Instead of flat denial Ed, take the verses that Clint posted, and tell us verse by verse which each one means.
DHK

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
Matthew 7

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

You are claiming that these false prophets arise from within the Church, but this verse does not state that at all. Yes, the word "inwardly" is used, but that has no bearing your thesis. The false prophets "come to you," which means from NOT HERE, but from ELSEWHERE. They appear good, but are dangerous underneath. Self explanatory, for they are FALSE PROPHETS. This means to not go off and join them in their false prophecies, but STAY PUT. This doesn't provide for your thesis.

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

Cut down the bad tree does not mean to plant a new forest.

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

The Church does not guarantee salvation; it merely provides the means, Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
John 10

1 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."

We must go through Jesus Christ to be saved. This doesn't speak of means to build a new Church.

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
1 Corinthians 10:14

Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.[/i]

You are correct. People should not worship false gods. What does this have to do with the Catholic Church? Nothing. Are individuals worshipping false gods? Of course; that's the concequences of God giving us free will. People in all of your churches follow false gods; we do that every time we break a commandment. Thank God for mercy!

God bless,

Grant

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
[qb]Matthew 7

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

You are claiming that these false prophets arise from within the Church, but this verse does not state that at all. Yes, the word "inwardly" is used, but that has no bearing your thesis. The false prophets "come to you," which means from NOT HERE, but from ELSEWHERE. They appear good, but are dangerous underneath. Self explanatory, for they are FALSE PROPHETS. This means to not go off and join them in their false prophecies, but STAY PUT. This doesn't provide for your thesis.

Clint never claimed that they did. That is an assumption on your part. The verse teaches to beware of false teachers. Whether they are inside or outside the church is irrelevant at this point. If any church preaches wrong doctrine we are to stay away from it. If I were a member of a church, and it began to preach false doctrine, I would leave it. Beware of false teachers; false doctrine.

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

Cut down the bad tree does not mean to plant a new forest.

Christ is talking of teachers and doctrine; false teachers and false doctrine. If the church leaders are false teachers teaching false doctrines, then leave it. People have left churches holding to false doctrine and started their own church. That is not unbiblical. Paul did not establish the RCC on three different missionary journeys; he established over 100 independent churches.

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

The Church does not guarantee salvation; it merely provides the means, Jesus Christ.

The church neither can guarantee salvation nor provide the means. Salvation is through Christ and Him alone. You must receive Him by faith. What has that got to do with the verses that Clint posted here?
Many will say in that day "Lord, Lord..." Yes, there will be many zealous and enthusiastic Catholic apologists as yourself that call Jesus Lord, but trust in your baptism and in your sacraments to get you to Heaven. Only Christ, and faith alone in His atoning blood can get you to Heaven.

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
John 10

1 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."

We must go through Jesus Christ to be saved. This doesn't speak of means to build a new Church.

That is not the main point here. Those who go in some other way are a thief and a robber. Jesus said that He alone was the Door. There is no other way to Heaven but by Him. But you try to enter in through baptism, through good works, through the sacraments, etc. You try to enter in some other way. You are a thief and robber Jesus says, for you lead others down the same path.

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
1 Corinthians 10:14

Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.[/i]

You are correct. People should not worship false gods. What does this have to do with the Catholic Church? Nothing. Are individuals worshipping false gods? Of course; that's the concequences of God giving us free will. People in all of your churches follow false gods; we do that every time we break a commandment. Thank God for mercy!

If Clint is correct, as you say he is, then why don't all the Catholic churches remove all the images/idols of Christ, Mary, and the saints that they faithfully bow down and pray before--as the Ten Commandments forbid us to do.
DHK