Question for free willers

This hasn't been the attitude of those who have argued against us? So far on this board, I have been told that my god is not the God of the Bible, which makes me a rank idolator and certainly not a Christian. I have been told that my views are heretical. I have been told that people can't see why anyone would believe what I believe. I have been told that my view makes God a vindictive little child.

Sounds like it is your way or the hiway. But, honestly, do you believe you are wrong? Of course not. If you believed that I was right, you would believe what I believed. If I believed that I was wrong and you were right, I would change my views. No matter what you believe, it is "my way or the highway."

I will say again, I really don't care if you ever read Calvin. I have been a Calvinist solidly for about 5 years. I didn't read any Calvin until last year. I became a Calvinist because my free-will house of card came crashing down when I studied the book of Romans. It had nothing to do with any Calvinist writings, unless you include Paul.

 

Until recently I have co-existed peacefully with calvinist believing that regardless of how they came about thier salvation they were and are saved brethren,which by the way I still believe.From what I get so far My thoughts remain the same.Just as I disagree with pentacostals on tongues and being slain in the Spirit,with thier belief that they can lose thier salvation,I still belive many of them are saved and sincere.

It is the dogmatism that pushes my button. It's like being attacked by a bunch of "JW's".They listen to nothing,nothing influences them,you are talking to a stone wall.

Now I will study Calvin in depth. My guess is that folks are more calvinists today than John Calvin ever was, sort of like the KJVO group are more attached to it then the translaters ever were.

I don't see how anyone could rightfully call themselves an educated calvinist without reading his writings.Although it will interrupt some of my other reading I will begin today to read"Calvins Institutes".When I am done we will discuss Calvinism in great depth.

I am niether a Calvinist or an Arminian. Of course Calvinist would disagree with that in knee jerk fashion.Whether you believe some of the things Calvin says or not makes no difference to the Calvinist ,with them it is all or nothing .God did not die and leave Calvin in charge.Calvin's writings are not in the Holy Scriptures.Calvin was a man, subject to error.I have no doubt Calvin was saved.I have no doubr he had a keen intellect and was very sincere.I have no doubt all of Calvin's writings were not perfect and infallable.

 

Hey Bill, After you chew on calvin's institues......the stone wall will still be there. And you might find the wall a bit more tastier then calvin's instiutes!

 

I'll let you know.

 

Because Calvinist is the name we have been given by those who disagree with us. It is not the name that we chose. I would prefer to call myself a Biblicist, but that sounds a little arrogant, doesn't it?

I look forward to it. I have read the Institutes and enjoyed them.

No Baptist Calvinist believed everything Calvin wrote. I disagree with his view of baptism. I disagree with his view of the covenant family. I disagree with his view of the sacraments. I, at this point, still disagree with his view of millenial issues. I did a Hebrew exegesis paper for seminary on Isaiah 65 and disagreed with his interpretation of the passage I was studying. I disagree with his view of ecclesiology.

His soteriology? I agree with.

My Calvinism didn't come from Calvin. It came from Paul.

Agree, as is every human theologian who has ever lived.

I say the same for (almost) everyone here on the board, including myself.

 

Kum-Bya...

believing that regardless of how they came about thier salvation they were and are saved brethren,which by the way I still believe.[/QUOTE]

Gee thanks for your approval of my salvation.

From what I get so far My thoughts remain the same.Just as I disagree with pentacostals on tongues and being slain in the Spirit,with thier belief that they can lose thier salvation,I still belive many of them are saved and sincere.[/QUOTE]

I also strongly disagree with them on all of the points you mentioned above.

It is the dogmatism that pushes my button. It's like being attacked by a bunch of "JW's".They listen to nothing,nothing influences them,you are talking to a stone wall.[/QUOTE]

1. I am dogmatic on the Word of God and make no apologies for that.
2. I have never attacked you. You, however, just compared me to a cult called the Jehovah Witnesses. Not very nice.
3. I have listened to you, and even responded to your questions using Scripture. You just didn't like the answer. There is nothing I can do about that.

Now I will study Calvin in depth.[/QUOTE]

I hope your study is meaningful to you. I would rather you spend your time in the study of the Bible in general, and perhaps Romans 9 in specific since that is the Scripture I quoted to you in my answer to your question. I think that would be more fruitful for you.

My guess is that folks are more calvinists today than John Calvin ever was,[/QUOTE]

Couldn't tell you definitively if this is true since I have never read anything by him. I can tell you, that from biographies I have read about him, I do have some disagreements with some of his beliefs. But, when it comes to salvation, I think we are on the same page.

sort of like the KJVO group are more attached to it then the translaters ever were.[/QUOTE]

More personal attacks. What a shame.

I don't see how anyone could rightfully call themselves an educated calvinist without reading his writings.[/QUOTE]

I call myself a Calvinist in that I believe the Biblical doctrines of grace that he taught. One does not have to read his work to know what they are. Even you know them. They are fairly well known.

Although it will interrupt some of my other reading I will begin today to read"Calvins Institutes".When I am done we will discuss Calvinism in great depth.[/QUOTE]

I would really like to discuss Romans 9:14-21 in depth with you. What do you say? Let's start with this:

1. Did Pharaoh have a choice in his decision?
2. Who hardened his heart and why?
3. Was God unjust to his objects of wrath because they could not resist his will?

I am niether a Calvinist or an Arminian. Of course Calvinist would disagree with that in knee jerk fashion.[/QUOTE]

When it comes to the doctrines of grace and salvation, you are either an Arminian or a Calvinist. There is no denying that.

Whether you believe some of the things Calvin says or not makes no difference to the Calvinist ,with them it is all or nothing. [/QUOTE]

This is not true. I disagree with Calvin on infant baptism and I also think he was wrong to execute those who were heretics. But, he was correct in his teachings about salvation.

God did not die and leave Calvin in charge.[/QUOTE]

1. God is still alive and in charge.
2. He did leave us his Word, and it is called the Bible. He told us to obey his commands which are found in the Bible.
3. Calvin is dead and not in charge.
4. But, he was right, and still is about the doctrines of grace and salvation.

Calvin's writings are not in the Holy Scriptures.[/QUOTE]

His doctrines of total depravity, grace, election, and preservation of the saints are found in the Scripture. That is where he got them from. He did not write Scripture. He simply agreed with it.

Calvin was a man, subject to error.I have no doubt Calvin was saved.I have no doubr he had a keen intellect and was very sincere.I have no doubt all of Calvin's writings were not perfect and infallable. [/QUOTE]

This is all true. See? We agree. Now back to Romans 9...

Joseph Botwinick

 

Excuse me while I rant for a second...

The lack of dogmatism on any subject is an unfortunate result of postmodernism, which I am pretty sure none of you would espouse in principle. We are afraid to say that we believe that we are right and someone else is wrong.

But this is sheer stupidity. Of course I believe I am right. You believe you are right. You are just as dogmatic as I am. And you should be, or you should believe something else.

All roads do not lead to Rome. All roads aren't just as good as every other road. Some roads lead to New Jersey instead. (not that there's anything wrong with that!)

 

nept:
God didn't do anymore for you than anyone else. It is just that you (chose) to accept Him and some (chose) to reject Him. He strives with all men to repent.

 

Why did he choose to accept while others chose to reject? The answer is because God regenerated him and changed his totally depraved free will. Any other answer elevates the righteousness of spiritually dead mankind and gives them something about which to brag.

Joseph Botwinick

 

The ref to KJVO and JW's was not aimed at you personally Joe. If you took it that way my apologies,I did'nt mean for it to come across as personal.
Now as to Romans 9:14-21 I get the part about God's soveriegnty but I don't see this particular piece talking about salvation.I see it referencing back to Exodus where Pharoah hardened his heart and God hardened it even further,then pharoah hardened his heart even further after that.
I read that passage of Scripture in my KJ,ESV,and NIV Bibles,my NKJV is out in the car.I also checked quickly in my Wycliffe,Bible Knowledge,& KJ commentaries and they are not taking me down you track.

Okay now to make sure I give this a fair shake we are talking about the theology of salvation and the theology of grace. This is wyhat I will go to Calvin's Institutes and study.Also in fairness I will read his commentary on Romans 9.When I am done doing my due dillegence on this I will also look at these two doctines from other sources just to be fair and balanced.

 

Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joe if you will do me the courtesy of letting me study this whole thing through fairly instead of asking me to answer off of the top of my head I would appreciate it very much.Be sure of this I will study not only the 7 verses you have requested but I will study the theology of salvation and of grace in "The Institutes" and elsewhere.

The impression I have is you along with a couple of others who follow calvinist theology on salvation and grace think I am not giving it a fair shake.I am not only willing to give it a fair shake but am willing to go the extra mile.I have not studied calvin on these matters in great depth but am in the process of doing that now.In addition I will still read the complete "Institutes"which I will complete after I do the other parts first.

Now all I ask is for you to do is be a gentleman and have a little patience.Would you consider that fair?

 

Sure. Why not? I didn't think the questions were very difficult though, seeing as Scripture very clearly spells out the answers. But, if you need time to see the writing on the wall, or in this case, in the Bible, then so be it.

Joseph Botwinick

 

This is not a difficult passage.It refers to Gods' power,mercy,grace,and will regarding an O.T. event. You wish to make it responsible for salvation.
So,since I am trying to give you and your view the FULL benefit of the doubt,I am sure you can hold off with the baiting.

 

We don't argue about the sovereign will of God, but God's sovereign will isn't exercised over our choice of whom we will serve,

God's will was that none perish, but many do, so quite obviously, God's will for none to perish "IS NOT" being exercised.

And if the results (perishing) are not God's will, then it certainly wasn't "predestined", else it would have occurred as "predestined".

Calvin's doctrine of "SOME" being predestined to hell, "Contradicts" God's stated will that not "ANY" should perish.

And that's the problem with calvin.

 

Well said.

 

We don't argue about the sovereign will of God, but God's sovereign will isn't exercised over our choice of whom we will serve, </font>[/QUOTE]Calvinists, actually agree with you here, believe it or not. God will not over-ride the free will choice of those who are perishing. But, those who are lost will not choose God unless God changes their will.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I dont consider myself either of the 2 sides of this debate i will ask a question though to the OP .............

It's to my understanding from what I read that one side says theres free will the other doesnt.

Now if the answer is Yes then why does the Bible support both views? Because it does support both veiws could both sides be wrong?? Yes!

Can both be right?? Yes!

Why do we even try to apply our logic to God??

Its because we think we are smart are we are not!!!!!!!

 

If God "changes their will", then why are many called but only a few respond??

Here, you're faced with two possibilities,

1. God will is the sovereign will

2. the call is "discriminatory" in nature, (in-effectual)

God is no respecter of persons, so the "in-effectual call" can be eliminated.

And if "God's will" is the "deciding factor", then Man's will is eliminated.

For God to be "honest", when he says Many "ARE" called, then the calling must be "Equal" to all.

If God is not willing for any to perish
And they are all equally called, yet some still perish,

how can God's will be the deciding factor between those who perish and those who don't,

God's will is either "Sovereign or not", but it can't be both.

God's sovereign will can't be responsible for saving the lost, Changing their mind, and at the same time deny that same "Mind change" to those who perish, else the calling would be less than "Truthful".

It's obvious, the final outcome of the calling isn't always the "will of God", as it would be under "Sovereign will".

You want to tell me again how God give to "Some" the faith they need to be saved and withhold it from other, because that's what you're saying.