Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
Until recently I have co-existed peacefully with calvinist
Kum-Bya...
believing that regardless of how they came about thier salvation they were and are saved brethren,which by the way I still believe.[/QUOTE]
Gee thanks for your approval of my salvation.
From what I get so far My thoughts remain the same.Just as I disagree with pentacostals on tongues and being slain in the Spirit,with thier belief that they can lose thier salvation,I still belive many of them are saved and sincere.[/QUOTE]
I also strongly disagree with them on all of the points you mentioned above.
It is the dogmatism that pushes my button. It's like being attacked by a bunch of "JW's".They listen to nothing,nothing influences them,you are talking to a stone wall.[/QUOTE]
1. I am dogmatic on the Word of God and make no apologies for that.
2. I have never attacked you. You, however, just compared me to a cult called the Jehovah Witnesses. Not very nice.
3. I have listened to you, and even responded to your questions using Scripture. You just didn't like the answer. There is nothing I can do about that.
Now I will study Calvin in depth.[/QUOTE]
I hope your study is meaningful to you. I would rather you spend your time in the study of the Bible in general, and perhaps Romans 9 in specific since that is the Scripture I quoted to you in my answer to your question. I think that would be more fruitful for you.
My guess is that folks are more calvinists today than John Calvin ever was,[/QUOTE]
Couldn't tell you definitively if this is true since I have never read anything by him. I can tell you, that from biographies I have read about him, I do have some disagreements with some of his beliefs. But, when it comes to salvation, I think we are on the same page.
sort of like the KJVO group are more attached to it then the translaters ever were.[/QUOTE]
More personal attacks. What a shame.
I don't see how anyone could rightfully call themselves an educated calvinist without reading his writings.[/QUOTE]
I call myself a Calvinist in that I believe the Biblical doctrines of grace that he taught. One does not have to read his work to know what they are. Even you know them. They are fairly well known.
Although it will interrupt some of my other reading I will begin today to read"Calvins Institutes".When I am done we will discuss Calvinism in great depth.[/QUOTE]
I would really like to discuss Romans 9:14-21 in depth with you. What do you say? Let's start with this:
1. Did Pharaoh have a choice in his decision?
2. Who hardened his heart and why?
3. Was God unjust to his objects of wrath because they could not resist his will?
I am niether a Calvinist or an Arminian. Of course Calvinist would disagree with that in knee jerk fashion.[/QUOTE]
When it comes to the doctrines of grace and salvation, you are either an Arminian or a Calvinist. There is no denying that.
Whether you believe some of the things Calvin says or not makes no difference to the Calvinist ,with them it is all or nothing. [/QUOTE]
This is not true. I disagree with Calvin on infant baptism and I also think he was wrong to execute those who were heretics. But, he was correct in his teachings about salvation.
God did not die and leave Calvin in charge.[/QUOTE]
1. God is still alive and in charge.
2. He did leave us his Word, and it is called the Bible. He told us to obey his commands which are found in the Bible.
3. Calvin is dead and not in charge.
4. But, he was right, and still is about the doctrines of grace and salvation.
Calvin's writings are not in the Holy Scriptures.[/QUOTE]
His doctrines of total depravity, grace, election, and preservation of the saints are found in the Scripture. That is where he got them from. He did not write Scripture. He simply agreed with it.
Calvin was a man, subject to error.I have no doubt Calvin was saved.I have no doubr he had a keen intellect and was very sincere.I have no doubt all of Calvin's writings were not perfect and infallable. [/QUOTE]
This is all true. See? We agree. Now back to Romans 9...
Joseph Botwinick
