Question for free willers

[Plain Old Bill]

Joe,
If God had not made Himself real to me what choice do you think I would have made.

Second I am not better than anybody.It always irks me when a calvinists resorts to that better than anybody line.I respect most of your views but on the no choice free will wec part company.That however does not drive me to a point of mean spiritedness.I just told you what happened to me and how I see it. If we see it differently that is okay we can agree to disagree.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Plain Old Bill,

Every totally depraved lost sinner follows his own free will choice straight to Hell unless God regenerates him and saves him from his own free will. Any other way, and your salvation is resting on your choice and your righteousness.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Me4Him]

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God, (is condemned already)

He that believeth on him is not condemned:

So what's the condemning charge here, Sin, or unbelief??

In Court, whatever the "Charge", you're either guilty/innocent, so why is the charge "unbelief" rather than sin???

The answer is simple, we've all sinned, so if the charge was sin, we'd all be guilty.

So the condemning charge isn't the sin we're all guilty of, but "unbelief" that prevented people from being saved, those condemned are not condemned for "being sinner", but "Remaining sinner" in spite of Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world.

Their sin doesn't condemn them, but their "UNBELIEF" in Jesus does.

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In order for them to "Reject" Jesus, the offer must be made to them, this is confirmed by "Many "ARE" called, few chosen".

God, not willing that any should perish, gives "EVERYONE" the opportunity to be saved,

Man was already condemned, so the Cross was never meant to condemn anyone, but to "SAVE EVERYONE", even the sins of the whole world.

This is why the "GOSPEL" (Good News) must be preached to all the world before the end.

"Irresistable calling, Limited Atonement, predestination, denies this.


Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


"FAITH" (Belief) in Jesus is a "LOOP HOLE" in the law whereby the whole world can escape death for their sins,

and the only condemnation that exist, is for people who refuse that loop hole.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

So what you are saying is God made us all robots.There never was a choice. Adam and Eve never had a choice. Eve was actually forced by God to sin and Adam was forced to follow Eve in sin.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Me4 Him, I've got bad news for you. Unbelief in Jesus IS a sin.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
So what you are saying is God made us all robots.There never was a choice. Adam and Eve never had a choice. Eve was actually forced by God to sin and Adam was forced to follow Eve in sin.

Ah, the old "if we didn't choose of our own free will, then everyone is a robot" argument. I haven't heard that one since...well, since the last time free willers were cornered and had no other answer to give.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
So what you are saying is God made us all robots.There never was a choice. Adam and Eve never had a choice. Eve was actually forced by God to sin and Adam was forced to follow Eve in sin.

Bill,

Read the Scriptures and judge for yourself. Did Pharaoh have a choice? Was God unjust to his objects of wrath?

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[a] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[c] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Romans 9:14-21

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Me4 Him, I've got bad news for you. Unbelief in Jesus IS a sin.

What difference would my "belief" make, if I was already comdemned???


NONE.

One sin, guilty of all.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
So what you are saying is God made us all robots.There never was a choice. Adam and Eve never had a choice. Eve was actually forced by God to sin and Adam was forced to follow Eve in sin.

Oh, no! Not the robot accusation again!

Well, then I'll throw a strawman back your direction: So, what you are saying is that man is god and God is really just a pansy that can't do anything until almighty man says its ok.

Are we done misrepresenting each other yet?

 

[npetreley]

I am a robot. Beep. Boop. Beep. I love God not because He opened my blind eyes and deaf ears but because He forces me love Him. Beep. Boop. Beep. I used to hate God not because I hated Him of my own sinful will but because God forced me to hate Him. Beep. Boop. Beep.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Me4 Him, I've got bad news for you. Unbelief in Jesus IS a sin.

What difference would my "belief" make, if I was already comdemned???


NONE.

One sin, guilty of all. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not following your answer. You said that man is not condemned for their sin. Man is condemned for their unbelief. I said unbelief is a sin. As a matter of fact, all sin flows from the sin of unbelief (see Romans 1). You then respond that unbelief wouldn't make a difference according to my view, which is a non-response, since I already said it does. It is the sin for which we are condemned.

 

[Brother Bob]

You get your answers and you still will not accept them. They could be no more clear than what these brethren have made them. Even Calvibaptist came really close to confessing to being a freewiller or at least saying he chose also but He seems to not want to just say it outright. I think he just wants to be a Calvinbist regardless. Calvinbists, you have asked and you have received but you try to put words in these brethren mouths because their answers just don't suit you. You seem to be trying to get these brethren to deny their own "travel from nature to Grace".

I have heard confessions like you have just heard for years. The words may have been a little different but the message was the same. So I say "amen" to the brethren.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Me4 Him, I've got bad news for you. Unbelief in Jesus IS a sin.

What difference would my "belief" make, if I was already comdemned???


NONE.

One sin, guilty of all. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not following your answer. You said that man is not condemned for their sin. Man is condemned for their unbelief. I said unbelief is a sin. As a matter of fact, all sin flows from the sin of unbelief (see Romans 1). You then respond that unbelief wouldn't make a difference according to my view, which is a non-response, since I already said it does. It is the sin for which we are condemned. </font>[/QUOTE]Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We're all condemned, but Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, so why aren't "ALL" saved,

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/b]

The only thing keeping all men from being saved is "UNBELIEF", their unbelief, nothing else,

Jesus did all that was necessary to save the whole world, God's will, so if any perish, it's not due to the failure of God doing something "else", giving man faith to believe, but man failing to believe.

Calvin's view of God is one that condemns/predestinates some people to hell, making God responsible for their demise, obviously not showing "LOVE" for them.

While Scripture teaches a God of love for the whole world, not condemning any but that all might be saved.

People don't got to hell "because of God's Predestination, as Calvin teaches,

People go to hell "IN SPITE" of God's effort to save all.

"Satan's Spirit" calls just as many as God's spirit calls.

And that put "MAN" in the middle, chosing which way he goes.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Since I said it does makes it so. It's my way or the hiway is the typical Calvinist answer to everything.
I have read Calvin sparingly. Only spots in the "Institutes", and some of the articles on the net,as well as spots from remarks by Erickson and Grudem. Well now you guys have got me a little angry.I will read "The Institutes " dover to cover just so I don't accidently miss anyy points in your arguements.I will either be converted to your way of thinking or I will beat you over the head with your own theology.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
I am a robot. Beep. Boop. Beep. I love God not because He opened my blind eyes and deaf ears but because He forces me love Him. Beep. Boop. Beep. I used to hate God not because I hated Him of my own sinful will but because God forced me to hate Him. Beep. Boop. Beep.

Must be an "Ultra, ULtra, ULTra, ULTRa, ULTRA, Calvinist.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by npetreley:
I am a robot. Beep. Boop. Beep. I love God not because He opened my blind eyes and deaf ears but because He forces me love Him. Beep. Boop. Beep. I used to hate God not because I hated Him of my own sinful will but because God forced me to hate Him. Beep. Boop. Beep.

Hmmmm this sounds like every calvinist post?! The program is working.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
I am a robot. Beep. Boop. Beep. I love God not because He opened my blind eyes and deaf ears but because He forces me love Him. Beep. Boop. Beep. I used to hate God not because I hated Him of my own sinful will but because God forced me to hate Him. Beep. Boop. Beep.

Hmmmm this sounds like every calvinist post?! The program is working.

</font>[/QUOTE]Uh, oh. Actually the program must be failing. I wonder if it's a virus. Normally, we don't admit this type of thing.

 

[Calvibaptist]

What I was trying to say in my post is that I did choose. Everyone chooses. Calvinists believe that. And when I chose, I had no idea about a sovereign God. Now that I have studied the Bible, I see that my choice, which was my own, was not an ultimate cause, but a secondary cause. The ultimate cause of my free choice was God's sovereign choice.

Calvinists don't deny choice. We don't believe we are robots. And you guys need to stop saying we do.

We ought to be getting angry at you because you ignore verses that clearly say that God turns hearts like He turns rivers. God will take out a heart of flesh and give a heart of stone. God hardens people's hearts. You accuse us of ignoring verses about choice, which we don't, and you ignore these verses.

The way I see it, Calvinism is the only view that I have seen (except maybe Tim's middle of the road view) which even comes close to dealing with both sides of the issue. The view you guys keep talking about emphasizes man's free choice and ignores God's sovereignty, no matter how much you protest it doesn't.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
Since I said it does makes it so. It's my way or the hiway is the typical Calvinist answer to everything.
I have read Calvin sparingly. Only spots in the "Institutes", and some of the articles on the net,as well as spots from remarks by Erickson and Grudem. Well now you guys have got me a little angry.I will read "The Institutes " dover to cover just so I don't accidently miss anyy points in your arguements.I will either be converted to your way of thinking or I will beat you over the head with your own theology.

Interesting. I have never read any of Calvin's Institutes, commentaries, or really, anything by Calvin at all. The only 5 point Calvinist books I have ever read was Sproul's "Chosen By God" and the Bible. They were both very good reads. You don't have to read all of Calvin's Institutes to make sure you don't miss any of my arguments. I think I have fairly and clearly laid them out for you right here. Read the Scripture I quoted and judge for yourself whether or not Pharaoh had a choice in the matter or if you think God was unjust to those who cannot resist his will. Read Sproul's Chosen By God and see what you think.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
You get your answers and you still will not accept them. They could be no more clear than what these brethren have made them. Even Calvibaptist came really close to confessing to being a freewiller or at least saying he chose also but He seems to not want to just say it outright.

Here, I'll say it outright for you.

"I CHOSE to accept the Gospel."

Contrary to your concept of black-and-white free-will-or-robots view of the universe, Calvinism is all about our will. We are born with a will that is corrupted and in bondage to sin.

God opens our eyes, ears, and changes our hearts. Then we very willingly choose to come to Him.

But unless God regenerates us, none of us would willingly choose to accept the Gospel. We're dead to the things of God, cannot understand them, and refuse to come to Him.

We choose alright. We simply choose according to our inclination. And unless we are regenerated, we are disinclined to choose God.