Question for free willers

I don't believe it is an antinomy, if by that you mean a contradiction. I don't think we understand how it all works, because we are talking about God, here. But Calvinists hold to what we call compatibalism, which means that these two seeming contradictory truths are not contradictory at all, but work together in God's plan to bring ultimate glory to God.

I'm not sure what you are. I don't believe the "theology" we are discussing comes by man IF we discuss from the context of Scripture, and not human philosophy or emotions.

 

I read the post on page 9 (I think) where you asked the question, and you didn't give enough details about what you believe for me to give an opinion.

By the way, Calvinism didn't come from Calvin. These principles were around way before Calvin's birth, and they were not presented in the form that we commonly see today until many years after his death. And even if it did come from Calvin that would not make it false.

 

I don't believe it is an antinomy, if by that you mean a contradiction. I don't think we understand how it all works, because we are talking about God, here. But Calvinists hold to what we call compatibalism, which means that these two seeming contradictory truths are not contradictory at all, but work together in God's plan to bring ultimate glory to God.

</font>[/QUOTE] But I find compatibilism = Free Will and Determinism, which leaves us still with “antinomy”, for Derterminism is often understood as denying the possibility of free will. The approach of the theory of Calvin, and those that follow, does not get us off the dime.

I'm not sure what you are. I don't believe the "theology" we are discussing comes by man IF we discuss from the context of Scripture, and not human philosophy or emotions. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for holding back on “what you think I am”. I do agree we discuss from context of Scripture, but it happens we are discussing the “theology” of a man named Calvin, and/or those that theorized of this philosophical doctrine, and what is presented today. The reason I am not of a belief of man is, I can't see they agree with what Christ revealed to Paul.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

I read the post on page 9 (I think) where you asked the question, and you didn't give enough details about what you believe for me to give an opinion.

</font>[/QUOTE]For clarity here is what was given in the post. “As a “free willer”, I am “predestined”. As I am “predestined”, I am a “free willer”. As a “free willer” I have scripture on my side. As a “predestiner” I have scripture on my side.”

I am both. I believe I have “free will”, and I believe I am predestined, and I think I have scripture to back me up. Whenever possible I try to stand on the Word of God, and not pull from what many call the “fathers”, or a doctrine of man.

Below, I hope you can see me in my free will of His predestination, for I chose to be predestined.

Yes I agree, the viewpoint in Calvin’s theology was changed many times, blooming into five “tulips”, when after his death they were needed to counteract the teachings of one of his former followers, Arminius.

Calvin a great Christian leader of the reformation gave birth to more than the “tulips”, but denominations, of which I believe we Baptist’s are. Had he stayed his course, the Presbyterian denomination may have been more like the Baptist, but he departed from scripture, when in his development of church government turned from the elder system to the hierarchical structure, that from which he came.

I believe Calvin’s source was the Bible. But so is everyone else’s. In the “doctrine” we hold, then we usually feel we have the right interpretation, even though others have doctrine they also believe can be proved by scripture. Some of the following is what I posted just recently on this topic in another forum, which may give further light to what I believe as to our “free will, and predestination”.


The Calvinist and the Arminian are not all “wrong”. They each have enough “right” in them for man to believe within his knowledge that he is right and the other is wrong. Neither of these believers are any more saved that the other, or others who’s views differ from theirs. We all come to our truths as we work out our own salvation.

For me, I have found what I believe does not put into variance His Word on this matter of “free will” and “predestination”. It is nothing New, or unknown, but evidently not circulated. I see “free will”, being foreknown, and also predestined. Also I wouldn't think it to be necessary to be a certain type of “dispensationalist” to see what is divided out for us. For me, I ask God to show me what He will. As time goes on, He has pointed out a few things to me, just as he has to all you here, as we study, looking to confirm, or find a new truth for us.

Predestination is peculiar to Paul, so I believe this is where we start for the simple reason he is the one Christ taught from heaven about this, and other things New, or not understandable until revealed. It is here we find the “eternal purpose” of God.

I believe Paul pretty much lays it out for us in Romans 8, before moving into chapter 9, and then solves our problem in chapter 10, if only we will accept what scriptures reveals to us. After all, are we to be of any that write outside of scripture? God’s Word lives in His Book, so we are not to follow any, regardless of their stature held by man. We must look and study from the source.

I see no contradiction to His Word in what He has shown me. I see it is we that “choose”, and it is He that “knows” us, but we must start with the “purpose of God”.

Romans 8:28-30, ”And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

Romans 10:12-13, ”For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

He “called” (He first loved us), and we heard His call. Do we all “call” Him back? God says today He is reconciling the whole world unto himself. We know God is not going to save the whole world, but everybody hears his “call”. All do not “call”, or hang-up.

So for me, I see in the verses furnished, we find in Jesus Christ His “eternal purpose” is accomplished. When we answered His “call” we became known of God, and He then did predestine us to be conformed to the image of His Son.

I don’t try to put anyone down, especially great men of God, or any others. I just try to share what I have been shown, as I believe all here do, and in so doing all are made stronger in our faith, by strengthening our position, or learning new one’s, hopefully that do not contradict.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

"When" indicates a point in time. "Then" also indicates a point in time. So God did not know us until "we answered His 'call'".

 

How much right is "enough", enough to be saved, enough to teach others, as much as God is willing to reveal??

I've noticed over the years that people have a "comforter zone" between living with their religion and the world, and once their comforter zone is established, that's "Enough".

Just as we can "quench the call of the spirit" to salvation, our comforter zone can also quench the spirit's ability to take full advantage of a life.

Most people pick and chose a "Doctrine/Denomination" based on "personal preferences" rather than "knowledge", and I have no problem with that for starter,

but why is it they can continue in a false doctrine/denomination for their whole life???

One characteristic common to all people is that we like to believe what we like even if it's not 100% truth, it's enough, and that's the "comforter zone".

It easy to tell when people are in their comforter zone, they become "dogmatic", that prevents them from having to confront the old doctrine/denomination with a "truth" it hid because it didn't have an answer.

People who get into a comforter zone stop searching, a new truth is the last thing they hope to find, or would accept if found, that's why false doctrines/denominations continue to exist.

The Carnal mind can't accept the "Son" as being the "Father", but separate from the Father, nor "foreknowledge" from "predestination", they're either one or the other, but not both.

The simple truth is that man is the failure in God's/Jesus's effort to save the whole world, laying the blame at God's door step for "any" perishing is a serious error.

 

There is no difference.

n/a.

 

There is no difference.

n/a. </font>[/QUOTE]1. "There is no difference". Mathmatically, that means zero. The value of zero is zero.

2. "n/a." This is equivelent to null set. Null set has no value.

Npet, does a non-answer count as a straight answer?

 

A non-question requires a non-answer. His question, "Since all believers were made to believe in God, who made them believe in God?" is a non-question, because if believers were not made to believe in God then God did not make them believe in him.

 

npetreley was given straight answers early on they were just unacceptable to him.His criteria is if he don't like the answer you give him it is not a straight answer.

 

Me4Him pg1 BroBob pg1
Webdog pg2 Bro Shane pg2
pob pg3 Me4Him pg3 Calvibaptist almost says it pg3
You say we have choice pg4
I thought enough was in the 1st 4 pages for you to get the picture.Of course you will insist nobody answered you because they did not give tha answer you demmand.There are actually people who think freely of calvinists,we do things every day without asking a calvinist one single thing.We don't need you to tell us how to answer anything.Now I can answer for myself but ulike you who can answer for everybody I can't answer for why someone else makes a decision or does'nt make a decision.But then you know it all and I'm still learning.

 

Why even participate in this thread? The poster asks a question and then disqualifies the only correct answer! Will is the power to make decisions for oneself. We're made in God's image, and I think will is one of the most glorious powers he has given mankind.

 

"When" indicates a point in time. "Then" also indicates a point in time. So God did not know us until "we answered His 'call'". </font>[/QUOTE]You got it J.D., and you are seeing the dispensations. It is as His Word says, I have “free will”, and I believe I am predestined as I said in the beginning. When did this happen? Just as you say, Quote "When" indicates a point in time. "Then" also indicates a point in time. So God did not know us until "we answered His 'call'", Unquote. You just described the “dispensation we live in”.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

QUOTE]Originally posted by Me4Him:

How much right is "enough", enough to be saved, enough to teach others, as much as God is willing to reveal??

I believe you are leading up to something here which looks like reaching our level of incompetence. But that is carnal thinking as we are assessing our ability, and not Christ's, which is unbounded.

I’m going to pay attention. I believe you may be describing “babes” in Christ.

Say, you do know this could apply to just about anyone, even someone on this board. Keep it up, as some of them may also read this post of yours.

They are ignorant of God’s Word. Aren’t you glad we are Baptist’s, and can judge all of these other people that are not Baptist’s? Or are you perhaps pointing to some on this board that you do not agree with. I’ll not do that, and charge one in Christ of having a false doctrine.

Brother you are right, but I would apply that to “most”, not “all”. You may wish to “qualify” to gain entrance into heaven, but I go for the “prize”. We run to win, but all cannot win, so “most” will fit your characterization, but not all.

If you have ever run a relay and won time after time as anchor man, and then in one race the baton never reaches you, you learn not to depend too heavily on others, and the blame falls on another, but you failed for depending on another. All you can do is hope for the best.

But then when you run your specialty in solo and win time after time, and then one of those loses appear, we have no one but ourselves to blame. I in this race for “life” chose Christ Jesus that ran the race and won, so I hopped into that “gift box” of victory. I find in that “Victory box” truths in the Unsearchable Riches of Christ, not revealed to man, until Paul. It is unending, and we just grow, grow, and grow.

I wish you would be more specific for there are many on this board that could fit this description. How can we enjoy this judging unless we have a “target”. We may just be shooting blanks here.

But I would differ with your terminology for you and I are “positive” in our positions won’t you say. I see that Jesus was “positive”, as was Paul, giving no sway to those “bigots”, those “dogmatist’s” that judges others. There are some that say this is what Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, John, John the Baptist were, for they sure were “zealots”, believing what they said. I really don’t think those people that judge in their own knowledge fully understand the Word of God.

Yes you are right, parroting what I said about you and I. For we “confirm”, and then look for “a new truth” so that we may grow in His Word. We know His Word is progressive, and I hope those ignorant slobs, whoever you may be pointing to, will read your enlightening words.

The Carnal mind can't accept the "Son" as being the "Father", but separate from the Father, nor "foreknowledge" from "predestination", they're either one or the other, but not both.

</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, some are so very ignorant of the make-up of God. Some just do not understand the Holy Trinity, that this One God, our God is the Word, He is the Father, and He is the Holy Spirit. Even some Baptists do not fully understand their God.

”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God.” No one has ever seen God, but he was seen in the flesh, and then Stephen also saw the “Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” Only those, and there are many Baptist’s, in the Spirit are able to see and determine such things as our God is one in three persons.

The best way for the ignorant in this matter is to study and understand I Corinthians 12:4-6. This will help those escape to higher ground from the “comfort zone”. ”Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.” This is not a “committee” we’re talking about, but One God in agreement, and equal in all aspects. God in these three is not impersonal, and relate to each other on an intimate level. In our finite minds we are allowed to understand God, but not all of God.

This is the reason we are to spread the “grace commission of salvation” of Christ from heaven, and believe Him when He says, “believe on Me and I will save you sinners”.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

You evidently have failed to read my posts.
Christian faith, ituttut