OSAS and future sins?

Hey Thess. sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you. When you addressed my points you really missed on a couple things. My first point was all about not being able to be unborn. You addressed my first line which was not my point. My point is that if I have a spititual birth I can not be unborn, just like a physical birth can't be undone. The two are comparred together for a reason in John 3. If possible address the unborn thing. A birth is a birth and the concept, by nature is irreversible. Born a child of God, always a child of God.

My last point you stated that basically Heaven rejoices when a person gets saved because they now have a chance at Heaven. Gerald, that is a stretch and then some. I have a hard time believing you are happy with that response.Heaven, isn't just angels, it is "saints", "angels", Father, Son, Holy Spirit. If Heaven was just people, not knowing anything to come and attending a sporting event your logic would hold but considering the King of kings is in heaven, your logic does not.

More to come,
In Christ,
Brian

 

Ray:

"Now you are beginning to step into the Light. "


Beginning? Ray, this has been basic Catholic teaching all my life. Your bias simply won't allow you to see any truth in Catholicism.


"Ray is saying, You are correct. Some Christians have been disciplined by the Lord and never knew it was His providence moving in and through their lives. This, however, does not detract from the fact that the Lord God was reproving them for their waywardness. This is the responsibility of more mature Christians to relate this fact to them. If God marked us off for the first time we step out of or away from His perfect will, we all would be candidates for everlasting punishment. "

I have never said he casts us off the first time we step off the beaten path. But that is we shows that his grace is not irresistable. Something that you "dogma" depends upon. The Catholic view does not neccessarily say that when one commits a grave act that it is always mortal. For there is the consideration of the will primarily for an educated Catholic. For an uneducated Catholic understanding of the gravity of the matter is a consideration. Only God and the individual know if one fully consents to the act with full understanding in disobedience to God. So you are simply wrong again about Catholicism Ray. The problem is that once we as humans begin on a path of sin we are weakened toward God's grace. Now it is still coming our way if we have not separated ourselves from him. But it is no more irresistable than when we committed the sin in the first place. Now if we continue on this path of sin eventually the grace will no longer penetrate our souls and we will become hard hearted and turn from God. Now this can also happen immediately if we fully consent to a sin knowing that it is against God's wishes for us.

Deal with my point about "irresistable grace" if you would in your next post Ray.

Blessings.

Discipline is temporal judgment or chastening in this lifetime, so we will not be condemned along with the rest of the sinners to Hell. [I Corinthians 11:32] [/QB][/QUOTE]

 

Brian,

Brian,

I appreciate your comments. I knew my post was inadequate and likely this one will be also. The problem is the frame of reference we are usings. It is not the scriptures for we have the same scriptures and believe me I see the possibility of loosing salvation just as sincerely as you see OSAS. The question is which frame of reference is true.

As for your point about not being unborn, you are only taking a phase of life to make your analogy. To be born is to be given life. That born child in order to live must be fed and nurtured or it will die. That child can also become injured which eventually leads to death. Yes, our physical birth can never be taken from us but we can die. Even at birth. So your anology does not work. I also believe I said it above, yes a child of God, but if one of my children were ever to become a danger to the rest of the family he would not be coming around. I don't think I missed your point at all. Christianity is a walk with God, requiring obedience. Not a one time infusion of grace and a coast. Grace is not irresistable or we would never sin. Sin can kill the soul. It is the only thing not mentioned in Romans 8:38.

Yes, brian, I am quite satisfied with my answer. The joy is among the angels.

Luke 15:10
"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

Thus what I said about them not knowing the eventual outcome. Further, the way you stated it "a chance at heaven" severly downplays my view. It is not a slim chance. For that reborn child of God is a member of the family of the saints and angels and they assist in the nuturing of that soul through there prayers and intercessions and through whatever God might ask them to do for that soul. Yet they understand quite well the consequences of sin and that the devil is around like a roaring lion seeking a soul to devour. The soul is under God's protection. Yet, the understand that God will not violate the will of that soul and if that soul chooses to fall in to the hands of the devil, they understand the choice it has made. I do not have heavens understanding but I do know that scripturally there is no guarantee of salvation. Forgive the offense but I see OSAS as an eternal welfare program. It has an appeal to those who do not want to have to work. But just as in life we must work, so in God's plan we must work through the help of his grace. OSAS has an appeal to man's weakness just as welfare programs in our earthly society appeal. Once again I know this is a bit offensive but I see it as truth. There are no welfare programs in God's plan. We must work out our "salvation in fear and trembling" .


1 Peter 5:6
Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,
casting all your anxiety on Him, because HE CARES FOR YOU. Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.

Note this is speaking about children of God. "HE CARES FOR YOU". It says be sober of spirt, be on the alert. If OSAS is true, there is no need of such talk. Devil can't do nothin to me. It says to resist him. Yet we know that that resistence is not a guaranted because John tells us that we must not sin but if we do we have an advocate. So we do sin. YOu and I both are man enough to admit that. Grace is not irresistable no matter how you slice it. Neither is the grace that God gives to bring us back. This can eventually kill the life in the soul. You need to deal with that issue.

Blessings

 

Brian,

Further reflection. The promised land.

In the book of Exodus the Jews (including Moses) are given the promise of a land flowing with milk and honey by God.

Exodus 3:17
"So I said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, to a land flowing with milk and honey."'


Do all make it to this land who recieved the promise? Those who made the golden calf do not make it. Those who were involved in the rebellions of Kora and the Danatites do not make it even though they recieved the promise. Not even Moses himself is allowed to enter the promised land because of his disobedience in giving God the glory for the water that came out of the rock. Of course the land flowing with milk and honey represents heaven. The point is that not everyone made it to the promised land who recieved the promise.

Blessings

 

Brian,

One more point. Why is it that you take that stuff from Luke 10 to be only about the born again Christian. It seems very fitting to me that it applies to any sinner and fits quite well with the prodigal son story. Now are there prodigal sons who don't repent and return to their father? Seems like a possibility to me from scripture. Now why would there been rejoicing in heaven over something that they know is a done deal. i.e. "well yes he sinned but he's a born again Christian so he was sure to come back around. No biggie.".

There is no indication that the stuff in Luke about the repentence of a sinner only applies to non-regenerate souls. Certainly it does apply to them. But it also applies to one who has fallen in to sin. The rejoicing is in him returning home to the Father.

Blessings

 

Brian,

Actually in taking another look at Luke 15:10 in context it seems it might be a missaplication of that verse (not that there would not be great rejoicing about the repentence of the unregenerate sinner) to apply it to the unregenerate sinner becoming born again. The context is a woman loosing one of her 10 coins she holds. Just prior to this verse it speaks of the one lost sheep. Once again you have to force your framework of OSAS on to the verse in order for it to be interpruted the way that you do. I do the same of course. The question is which framework (tradition) is correct?

 

God forbid that I should interrupt (interprut) the Book. It flows seamlesly from Genesis to Revelation telling of God's great plan of redemption for mankind through Jesus Christ.

But the sciene of hermeneutics is one of rightly dividing the Word of truth which requires interpreting the Word of God (not interpruting) according to its historical context.

Just a thought.
DHK

 

thessalonian,

I do not believe in irresistible grace before salvation or during our state of grace. Calvinism believes in Irresistible Grace. I most definitely believe that a sinner can resist the wonderful grace of Jesus. This as you probably know this is highlighted in John 5:40;
Acts 7:51b; Isaiah 63:10.

Also, Christians can resist the grace of God after salvation whereby they grieve [Ephesians 4:30]or quench [I Thessalonians 5:19] the Holy Sprit. This obviously is not a good thing to do as believers in Christ and will ultimately insure our chastisement.

Notice the sealing of the Spirit is not until mortal sins are committed but the marked, signet is until we reach Heaven. [Ephesians 4:30] The seal is not mere poetry but is that which insures our hope of everlasting life.

 

These guys are goin to heaven afterall. The Anglicans are right! 1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

Regardless of what they do they have the seal. Hallelujah! Or perhaps not.

Thanks for the post Ray. But if you were ever gaining any ground (which you weren't) you just completely lost me. You said above that Christians can sin, i.e. can do these things. Now you also say they are saved. You make God a liar.

 

Both frames of reference are true.

Salvation is based upon FAITH and FAITH ALONE! Salvation is not gained through good Works, nor the Sacraments, nor is salvation lost through evil works (sin) because Jesus paid the penalty for sin when He died on the cross for the sins of the world. Even so, that does not give free license to sin!

Salvation is God's domain, and God's Alone. There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved!

Faith is man's domain and man's alone! Faith is something that Deity has no use for. With Omniscience, there is nothing that requires faith which is described as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen". What would all-knowing God hope for? What is invisible to all-seeing God? God is not sitting on His throne wringing his hands in anticipation of something He hopes will happen, Nor does he need any evidence of what he cannot see. Banish those foolish thoughts from your frame of reference which ever it may be.

Therefore, so long as man gains and retains faith in God the Father, and or in Jesus the Son of God, the Christ, man is sanctified, set apart from those who do not believe. Those who, upon dying from the natural life, are found to have a condition of faith in God and in Christ the Son, are sanctified by that faith and are known as sheep (Jesus' sheep who hear his voice) and the sheep are separated from the goats. The Sheep are not judged, but the Goats are judged and then cast into the lake of fire.

Those who gained faith, then lose that faith for whatever reason and die with a lack of faith, are among the goats who are judged and cast into the lake of fire.

The Parable of the Sower illustrates those who lose faith. They are the ones who are the rocky ground upon which Faith seeds fall then sprout up only to die, producing nothing, and those who are the weedy ground where seeds of Faith fall, sprout up only to be choked out by the "cares of the world"...weeds.

So Yes, it is possible for one to gain faith and then lose it! But, it is also quite possible to gain faith and never lose it! Seeds of faith that fall on good ground sprout up and produce greatly!

Yes, both frames of thought are equally valid. Your salvation is not based on which frame you find yourself in, but upon the condition of your faith when you die from this natural life.

 

Thessalonian, Ray is correct! Born again Christians can sin, and do Sin. Do you think Jim Bakker is not going to heaven because he was convicted of sins here? Do you think Jimmy Swaggart is not going to heaven because of sins he committed while a born again Christian?

What is the purpose of the Catholic "confessional"? What do you do with 1 John 1:9,10?

Those who will not get to heaven are those who are not repentant of their sins. Both Bakker and Swaggart have confessed their sins...publically and both have repented and have been forgiven by God. Both still suffer the consequences of having sinned, they are not fully restored to the place where they were when they sinned. Thy are however able to hope for while not seeing their salvation, because it is assured to them through their faith in Jesus Christ which both men possess!

Like David with His sins, God did not abandon him, or ban him from entering heaven. David confessed his sins, and was restored by God. And though David did not lose his throne because of his Sins, he became suspect in the eyes of his subjects. A dramatic change from what he was in their eyes before his sin. In the same manner, Bakker and Swaggart, through their confession and repentance have been restored by God.

Every Priest in the Catholic church has similar circumstances. Though they may have confessed their sins, and been forgiven and restored by God, the consequences of sinning, especially those who sinned against children, have caught up with them and they must face the consequences of sin in the same manner that we all must face the consequences of our sins. Drinkers and smokers face the consequences of ingesting the substances into their bodies. Overeaters face the consequences of overeating etc. And sinners must face the consequences of their sins. The consequences of sins do not keep us from going to heaven, but they do make the trip much more difficult, even unpalatable.

We are not condemned by our sins if we confess and repent from them. Jesus already paid the penalty for sin which is death. He took that consequence from us so that we could be saved through our faith in Him.

 

thessalonian,

At the time of the receiving of the sacrament of Communion in the early church some stepped over the line as to their sin or sins and the Lord took them out through death, or in the words of Scripture, ' . . . and many sleep.' [I Corinthians 11:30]. They did not have time to repent and yet God says they are counted among the saints who entered Heaven. Why were they taken into Heaven? Answer: 'So they would not be condemned along with the rest of the lost world.' [vs. 32]

This is something you need to learn in the spiritual realm that might not be defined in your Roman Catholic Catechism. Write it in your notebook for future reference. And just think God did not even say anything about Purgatory, but He did about the Judgment Seat of Christ, in Paul's second epistle to the Corinthian Church in chapter five verse ten, and also in I Corinthians 3:11-15.

It seems all too clear, right?

 

Thess - there are two points to consider.

#1. 1 John 2:1 states that for Christians - when we sin - we have "and Advocate with the Father". Our Priest is in heaven - interceding for us. It does not say "we cease to be God's people" at the moment we sin.

#2. But even at that - in Hebrews 6:1-8 and in Matt 18 (last half of the chapter) we are shown that determined rebellion can eventually cause us to "fall from Grace" (as we see in Galations 5). Forgiveness revoked as we see in Matt 18.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Thess. 1 Peter 5 is in the context of Christian activity and usefullness to God. We are to bear fruit for God, and further the Kingdom by that fruit. We resist the devil and are alert so as not to destroy our witness and become less useful to God. I go back to my friend in prison who did not resist the devil and for 2 to 3 years was not bearing fruit. The devil won a battle with my friend, though my friend had long before that won the war.

Thess. the verse about Heaven rejoicing is not saying that just the angels rejoice, read it more carefully. I'll check and see how other versions quote the verse, to see if the language they use makes it more clear. I thinks you or other Catholics have used that verse to show that everyone in Heaven is aware of what goes on here on earth and that is a reason to pray to the saints. Now it seems you want to say it is only the angels that hear and rejoice. Back to which, the angels in Heaven have not fallen, they are still a perfect creation, they would not rejoice for a soul that was going to end up in Hell, God would see to that. So, either way you look at it the verse supports my line of logic not yours.

Thess. you said if a son dies he is no longer a son? and I say to that, WHAT!!!!!! If my son died tomorrow, he would still be my son, forever, especially because he is a child of God. Your anology falls short. My unborn point is that once born, nothing can go back inside the mother and be unborn. Jesus used the words "born again" it is a second birth, stay with me here , a second birth is no more reversible then a first birth. The concept of losing a birth or never being born defies all nature and logic. If we are born a child of God, a child of God we stay. We stay, not by our faith or works, which are but rags or dust but by God's faithfulness, which is perfect. You think of that as cheap grace. I think of a God that buys me for a price, the price of sacrificing His Son no less, and lets me go because I get weak, as being a weak God. My God is faithful with his chosen children to the end. Remember John 17? God gives us to Jesus as a gift. Am I to believe Jesus would take a gift from the Father and throw it away, or lose it, or let it go? -- May it never be.

Thats all for now, Thanks for the Christ-like posts you have been writing. I do read and ponder them because I respect you. Take care Thess./Gerald.

Your friend in Christ,
Brian

 

"Thess. you said if a son dies he is no longer a son? and I say to that, WHAT!!!!!! "

Where did I say that Brian.
Blessings.

 

Hey Thess. You wrote this:
"""That born child in order to live must be fed and nurtured or it will die. That child can also become injured which eventually leads to death. Yes, our physical birth can never be taken from us but we can die. Even at birth."""

Did I get the wrong idea from this?? if so I apoligize.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Apology accepted.

Death separates. So does spiritual death. Some sins are mortal you know (At least that is what John says). I think your point about the child dying and still being our child, yet separated from us is a better analogy for my view. But then once again the framework of truth that is in each of our minds influences how we see things. I have more to say on your earlier post when I get time. I see some false dichotomy with regard to the Peterine verse. I agree with what you said but that does not disprove what I said.

Blessings

Thess

 

Hi Thess. I write this on a whim and not from really thinking it out. If physically dead does not cause a "child" of a human to be not a child, then it is not wrong to say that if a true "child" of God would spiritually die, he would still be a child of God. That is just on a logic line. Keeps your anology within my framework.

Thess. I ask this sincerely. Which framework is more appealing to you?, just as a human. Putting scripture and "church" teaching aside. I ask this because I am evaluating my own "feelings" on the whole subject and trying to gain a perspective on "feeling" vs. truth (sometimes there is a conflict you know ).

In Christ,
Brian

 

"Thess. I ask this sincerely. Which framework is more appealing to you?, just as a human. Putting scripture and "church" teaching aside. I ask this because I am evaluating my own "feelings" on the whole subject and trying to gain a perspective on "feeling" vs. truth (sometimes there is a conflict you know )."

Oh, OSAS from a human perspective has the greatest appeal. That is the danger in it. The flesh is weak. We want the easy road (I am speaking of myself also). We want gaurantees on everything that we buy and our checking and savings and 401k's so that there is no risk. 5 year 60,000 mile bumper to bumper protection. It is no surprise to me that OSAS has infected the Christian religion, for it appeals to our feelings and our human nature which does not want consequence for our actions.

 

'It is no surprise to me that OSAS has infected the Christian religion, for it appeals to our feelings and our human nature which does not want consequence for our actions.'

The word infected shows a person's bias. I don't care if people believe that if they were saved by Christ they will ultimately be saved. Apparently, the Lord does not yet trust them with the truth. I used to believe that one sin in the life of the Christian would warrant eternal death. I had to say, they might be right and then after years of study I began to see things as God wrote them down for us. I began to compare Scripture with Scripture and so on.

The concept of eternal security should appeal to our human sensibilities and emotions; salvation is a very personal experience. We are responsible to the Lord God for our destiny.

We are totally responsible for our sins. It must be our concern to confess our sins to Him; it is His ministry to be faithful and just/fair to forgive us our faltering. [I John 1:9] People who believe in OSAS have long ago come to the realization that for every sin that a Christian commits, there is a consequence. Our temporal punishments are ministered by the Lord God here an now, so we will not have to suffer Hell in the future. [I Cor. 11:32]

David's adultery did not destroy his relationship to the Lord but it did bring on discipline from the Lord by way of the fact that 'the sword would always remain in his house.' David's salvation was not withdrawn because of his adultery. David did not say, 'Return unto me my salvation, but rather the Lord had him write these words, 'Return unto me the joy of my salvation.' No Christian can dabble in sin and have continued peace with the Lord God.

The memory of our presumptious sins will deter us from continuing in a downward path.