OSAS and future sins?

I am pleased to see that we have some agreement.

There is but one divine Grace, the Grace of God. That Grace is not given away in the sense that ownership and control over it is transferred. Grace is an Attribute of the Behavior of Divine God. In creating man in His imaged God instilled in each of us the attribute of Grace. Hense we behave graciously, show favor, toward those we choose to show favor to. God established his Grace as his mode of operation toward man thus setting aside His justice for a different time.

In God's grace, He has bestowed on us many gifts, the chiefest of which is Jesus, His only begotten Son. Therefore we view Jesus as a gracious gift of God or God giving us grace. When in reality God did not give us his grace, but did give us a gift out of his grace.

Jesus' mission in life among man was first and formost to "build a church" among men. When the initial church foundation was laid, and that foundation ROCK is the truth of who and what Jesus is, Jesus then made it possible for all mankind to have an equality before the throne of God. That equality is Faith, something you have or not have. Faith is something that all mankind can have in equal measure, and what each man is capable of having. There is no equality in works nor is there any equality in sin except that all sin is paid for with death.

So in order to eliminate sin as a judgment factor, Jesus died on the cross to atone (pay the penalty) for the sins of the whole world. Now, our works cannot earn us eternal life, and our sins cannot prevent us from having eternal life (Jesus died for our sins). Leaving FAITH ALONE as the single equalizer among men. Faith is something you have or have not! If you have faith as Jesus said in John 3:18, you are not judged, but pass from death unto life. If you do not have faith, you are judged and then cast into the lake of fire, the second death. So, the High and mighty are judged by the same criteria as the meek and lowly.

Now the part that is hard for many Calvinists to swallow, is that "whosoever" believeth is not judged and has everlasting life. "Whosoever" implies that the choice is man's, and is not predetermined by God, though an omniscient God does in truth know from eternity to eternity all that has, is and will happen. Knowing does not mean causing! Therefore, it is not just some nebulous "elect" that are saved, it is "Whosoever believeth on Him" that are saved. Do I deny that there is an elect? No! the scriptures speak of "the elect", but the scriptures do not declare that "the elect" are the only ones who are saved! Neither do the scriptures declare who "the elect" may be. The scriptures do declare themselves to be for any who will receive them, thus opening the door to every human in this temporal life and not just to some.

I will admit that my wording is a bit awkward but are you saying that God's grace has nothing to do with our being born anew? By contradicting me you seem to be saying that it is our action of believeing that causes us to be born anew. I am making a distinction that perhaps you are not getting. I agree that believing in Jesus is what is the cause of being born anew. The distinction I am making is that even that is a grace from God won for us through Jesus atoning sacrifice.</font>[/QUOTE]NO, I am not saying that God's grace has nothing to do with our being born anew. God's grace enables, not causes, our being born anew.
</font>

• God established His Holy Scriptures, HIS WORD</font>
• God gave us Jesus, his only begotten Son</font>
• God established His Son to be the propitiation for our sins (taking our place)</font>
• God established in the New Covenant that OUR (possessive) Faith in His Son is the only Criteria for OUR (again possessive) Salvation.</font>

God did all the work! That is GRACE.

God also created man in His image, giving to man the ability to:</font>

• Hear God through God's word</font>
• Reason (Persuasion is included)</font>
• Choose among options (the ramifications of choice are included)</font>
• Persist (endurance is included)</font>
• Change his mind (repenting is included)</font>
• Disobey (a choice, rebellion is included)</font>
• The essence of man is spirit (in the image of God, thus "born again" is a spiritual distinction)</font>
• God gave man Dominion over the earth and all that is in it!</font>

Ability: the power or capacity to do or act physically, mentally, legally, morally, financially, etc. (includes spiritually)
God would not have given man Dominion without giving him the authority and ability to act in accordance with dominion. The Calvinist cannot grasp the scope of man, because the calvinist is groping for the dirt from whence man was formed.

With the abilities that God gave to man in the creation which God did not remove from man in the expulsion from the garden, God is leaving the choice to man. In so doing God is asking man. "Do you or do you not want to be saved?" If man says, Yes, then God's word tells us that we must believe, have faith even on the name of his beloved Son, Jesus. If man answers, NO, or does not answer immediately! God, in his grace waits. After all, God has an eternity to wait for man, it is man that is limited by years of natural life, the period when the choice is made. Not choosing salvation is the same as saying NO!

God's grace is a factor in man's coming to faith in Jesus, but the Gifts given in grace are the means of persuasion God uses to convince man to believe and have faith in Him and His Son, Jesus. God's grace provides man with the time necessary to arrive at belief, and thereby be saved.

Now I ask, what is there in believing that is a work? Let me give you a clue...NOTHING!

 

I said:
"OSAS gives man a cavalier attitude toward sin.

Ray Said:
Ray-I used to milk that concept until the Word of God made me give up on what I had been taught in my youth. "

I say:
I have heard many homosexuals say they used to stuggle with their sin, then evenutually they gave in to it and said that the lie was truth. Martin Luther had a struggle with scrupulosity. Because of scrupulosity he was heavily burdened by his sins to excess. His solution: To quote him: "Sin and sin boldy". Now that is cavalier. My wife's ex-husband went to a church for a while where they would drink beer, smoke pot, and read the Bible. After all they were saved. Ray, we can go around in circles some more if you would like and I realize this is anecdotal evidence but OSAS is a lie. God will be your judge as to whether you are using his grace to root the sin out of your life, but root it out you must "lest ye fall".

Blessings

 

One further comment on the stuff below:

"OSAS gives man a cavalier attitude toward sin.

Ray-I used to milk that concept until the Word of God made me give up on what I had been taught in my youth. "

Ray,

Perhaps it was good in your youth that you thought this and it kept you from committing sins, due to a seared conscience. Perhaps in your old age you have a well developed conscience such that you do not have a cavalier attitude towrd sin. But the logic behind OSAS not causing a cavalier attitude is the same logic that says "let's talk to kills about pills and condoms and even provide ascess to them. Then let's tell them not to have sex". That is the Christian enviroment you are essentially putting youth in with this OSAS concept. I was listening to Protestant radio, Dobson ,the other day and there was these letters from guys and women they were reading about the "Christians" who were presuring them in to having premarital sex. Did they believe in OSAS? Well if I were a betting man I would say they didn't believe they could loose their salvatoin over it.

Blessings

 

thessalonian,

What part or parts of my post dated Sept. 4, 2003 at 3:56 p.m. do you not find to be the truth? My post starts out---Ray--'I used to milk that concept . . . '

Regards,
Ray

 

Ray,

Excuse me. I am puting you a bit too much in the OSAS camp. My apologies.

 

thessalonian,

You said, I have heard many homosexuals say they used to stuggle with their sin, then
evenutually they gave in to it and said that the lie was truth.

Ray is saying, 'I take it that you are talking about Christian people who have had a temptation and problem with homosexuality. That is a sad situation. That is what the Judgment Seat of Christ is all about. There are those who will try to continue in the sin but the Lord will chasten them if they are saved. If they persist then the Lord will take them to Heaven early because of their lousy testimony in this world. [I Corinthians 11:30-33]

We have to keep things in perspective. Jesus said, also 'Not everyone who calls Lord, Lord . . . . ' is going to see the beatific vision and reality of Heaven forevermore.

 

Paul dealt with that issue in Romans 6:15, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

The words Paul uses for "May it never be!" is the strongest possible langauge to say absolutely "NO!!!!!"

 

Paul dealt with that issue in Romans 6:15, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

The words Paul uses for "May it never be!" is the strongest possible langauge to say absolutely "NO!!!!!" [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Amen to that verse. So what. It proves nothing in the issue of whether we can loose our salvation. One could presumptuously says "I can committ this sin because grace will revive my soul". Paul makes no distinction about such a soul not being saved in the first place in the sense that they never could have been under grace and yet fall from grace. In a sense of course this Christian was never saved in the first place, in that they may well not have the grace of final perseverence. Evidence of our salvation is in our works and perseverence.

 

Hi Thess. I have no time to post these days but I wanted to point out that I have never said that my sins don't matter because there paid for anyway. I've never as a Christian not taken my sins seriously, at least in the sense where they bother me and i want to do something about them. The verse pointed out above fits the OSAS syatem better then yours. You know that as evidenced by the playdough molding you did with it to make it fit your side. Those who would say "i'll just do this or that because I'm saved anyway are more then likely those that Jesus will say "I NEVER KNEW YOU", to. I suppose it is possible a backslidden or distrought Christian could say what you said but it would be a rare thing.

Thess. what do you do with Job? He was "perfect" so the KJV says yet he cursed the day he was born. He was a perfect God-fearing man who struggled. Was he unsaved when he was upset? I think not.

Take care, Hope you and yours are well!

In Christ,
Brian

 

If they persist in sin they will go to Heaven early?

Assuming one desires to go to Heaven, this sounds like an incentive to sin.

 

Ron, that would make sense if there wasn't joy and abundant life here for believers. Struggles? yes there are those as well. The power to hang on and overcome, well that is here too. A saved person who is sinning to a degree where God would need to take them home early, is not someone who is having a jolly old time in their sin. They would be miserable inside as the Holy Spirit convicts them. No one would intentially do that to themselves to get to Heaven. Plus, God would know the sin was just for that reason and deal with it accordingly.

Ron, what is your take on those verses from 1 Cor.?, that Ray pointed out.

Your friend in Christ,
Brian

[ September 11, 2003, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

Ray and Briguy,

With regard to your doctrine, sinners get taken to heaven early for bad behavior I shall borrow a phrase from James Akin - "THAT's NUTZ".

1 Cor 11:30-33, what's our take? Brian I should think you could figure that out by now. When Paul says "that we may not be condemned along with the world" it means that it is possible that we may be condemned. The discipline is to bring us back. We agree on that. What you fail to see is what I have already proven. We can resist the grace to avoid the sin in the first place for God always gives us a way out, yet people still sin. The discipline is also a grace. It can be resisted as well by our free will, eventually leading to separation from God. Simple enough.

Blessings

 

When I first came across I Corinthians 11:30-32 I knew what it meant but did not want to admit it because it disagreed with my own biased theology. The Holy Spirit made me change my mind rather than sit in error and self-deception.

The Corinthian church was the most carnal of all the other churches in the N.T. Christians were coming to the Eucharist and were receiving Communion without confessing their sins to the Lord God. Theologians believe that these Corinthian Christians thought they received the bread as though they were dining and were drinking the wine as though it would not make them drunk. Anyway in order to understand this passage, one has to realize that there were three degrees of chastisement ministered to these wayward souls. The lightest judgment was
'weakness' and then for a more severe discipline God ministered 'sickness' and the worst judgment on these believers was that of physical death. 'Sleep' is always referred to in the N.T. with reference to Christian believers. No sinner is ever spoken of as having fallen asleep in Christ.

Sinners are condemned to eternal punishment as noted in John 3:18b. In the words of the Apostle Paul they are going to be 'condemned' [I Cor. 11:32] and separated from the saints of God. The Lord never chastises sinners; He only chastises/disciplines those who are the people of God. [Hebrews 12:5-8] Those people who are not going to be 'condemned with the worldlings' are the saints of God. [I Cor. 11:32] Apparently, the Christians who were taken to Heaven prematurely, were those who neglected to confess, what Catholic people speak of as 'mortal sins' plus possible 'venial sins.' We speak of 'mortal sins' as being the most serious sins against holy God. These who were made to 'fall asleep' were Christians who definitely neglected to confess their sins to Almighty God. [I John 1:9]

Since salvation is by grace alone apart from works, the Lord has promised that those who believe in Him will never perish. [John 3:16; John 10:27-30; Romans 8:1; I Cor. 6:17; I John 5:11, 13, 20f]

Only a Christian with myopic vision could deny this pristine truth, or someone who only wants to hold on to what their church has taught them. Some Christians have never had anyone explain the meaning behind this passage in its historical context.

This is why Catholics go to the confessional before receiving Communion and it is also why non-Catholics confess their sins directly to the Lord before entering in on this sacred service of remembrance of what He has done for us on the Cross. Why do we confess. Well, at least in part because we do not want to have God step into our lives with His providential judgments because of our failure to confess our sin. Our relationship to the Lord is never, never broken but our fellowship with Him can be lost. If you walk in the light of Christ's truth you will enjoy the peace that only comes from Him. [I John 1:7] If the Christian determinedly sins against the Lord, that closeness is immediately lost and he or she loses that sense of assurance of salvation. This experience is one of the things that brings us back into fellowship with our Lord.

Our eternal security is appropriated as we trust in Christ for His eternal salvation coming from Him as a free gift. [Ephesians 2:8] Our good works alone cannot save. Receiving the Communion of both kinds {bread and wine} does not have the power to save, except as it is received in faith toward Him. If we could partially save ourselves, Christ then would have died in vain.

Eternal security or everlasting life is everlasting for Christians because ' . . . where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.' [Romans 5:20] God speaking through Paul said just because you are saved forever does not give you the excuse to ' . . . continue in sin, that grace may abound.' God forbid that we should sin. [Romans 6:1 & 2]

When we know we are saved, then we can get on with other important things, like witnessing to our faith in Jesus. We can lead other people to Christ because we realize that He has saved us and loves us with an everlasting love. If we think we are in and out of grace from time to time, we will never have a true assurance that His love goes even beyond our foolish sins. If we believe we are in and out of grace, how can we focus on other people who are lost? We might think that in the end we also might be lost and placed in Hell.

Check the Greek on this one. I John 5:18 indicates that Christ keeps us and the wicked one, the Devil, cannot get a grip on us to do us eternal harm. This verse is in keeping with John 10:28. The Apostle John believed in eternal security in his early life and also as the aging apostle of the Christian faith as we read his words in I John 5:18. Dr. Fred L. Fisher, Th.D. believes that I II and III John were written between A.D. 85 and 100.

 

Ray, great post! That was a nice summary of the position you, I and DHK have been taking.

Thess. I have tried tomake those verses in 1 Corinthians mean something else as well but the more you just read it there is really no honest way to look at it beyond what Ray just said. I can sort of see why you are interpreting it the way you are but it doesn't line up with the direct words and the facts behind the verse. Thess. Go ahead and expand on your meanying and include the historical context as well. Make me understand

In Christ,
Brian

 

Once again, in the framework of your mind and the doctrines that have been placed there by the false traditions you have embraced the truth of God makes no sense. Of course you will say the same with me. I will try to expand later as time allows though I will be very busy in the next month preparing for a debate with a protestant pastor.

Blessings

 

"The Lord never chastises sinners; He only chastises/disciplines those who are the people of God. [Hebrews 12:5-8]"

Nonsense. The Lord chastens all who sin. The difference is the one who does not have faith does not see it as such. Your Hebrews verse indicates that a Christian can ignore the chastening also. Paul says:

"My son, DO NOT DISDAIN the discipline of the Lord or LOSE HEART when reporved by him..."

We need to be brought back when we are headed down the path of sin.



Proverbs 16:22
Understanding is a fountain of life to one who has it,
But the discipline of fools is folly.

You say a fool can continue in his foolishness and still recieve a heavenly reward. Once again, THAT's NUTZ. Wish I had time for more.

Blessings

 

Ray,

Please reconcile these verses with your doctrine of devils.

Hebrews 12:15
See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it MANY BE DEFILED.

Seems that the many can become defiled. Are the defiled going to heaven?

Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

Oh, I suppose you will say that one can be defiled and believing.

 

thessalonian,

I said,"The Lord never chastises sinners; He only chastises/disciplines those who
are the people of God. [Hebrews 12:5-8]"

You said, Nonsense. The Lord chastens all who sin. The difference is the one who does not have faith does not see it as such.

Ray is saying, 'In Hebrews chapter twelve the author is telling the church that only and all Christians received chastisement at times in their lives. We are considered by God and the author of the Book of Hebrews as 'sons and daughter' of God, if we have received Christ.

O.K. smart guy, Who are the people 'without chastisement,' if all human beings are chastised but sinners do not know they are being corrected? Do you have a third classification of people who you are thinking about who do not receive correction/chastisement/discipline?

Who are the people, termed 'bastards' who are without chastisement? For an intelligent man you put your foot way down your Catholic, theological throat. The Lord is telling us that those considered 'bastards' are illigitimate sons who are outside of the faith of Christ, and, therefore, are sinners.

Blessings to you and yours . . . .

 

thessalonian,

Satan has already 'gift wrapped' sinners for the destination called, Hell, unless they turn to Christ and away from their sins. The Lord does not bother correcting/chastising sinners because they He calls them 'children of disobedience' and 'children of wrath' in Ephesians 2:2-3.

When my children were younger I chastised them, because they were mine. Did you chastise all the children in your neighborhood when you had younger children? Probably not . . . . because they were not yours or your responsibility. All people of God have a blood bond to Christ our Savior.

What think ye, brother?

 

Ray,

I'll deal with this later. I stand by what I have said. Methinks Cornelius and his situation will have some bearing on my response. Stay tuned.