Basic Trinitarian Doctrine

Trinity:Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The Father, Son and holy Spirit. Or is this too simple for you learned scholars?

Ernie

 

If the son is the Father, there is but only one witness to the Son.

Who took the scroll from the one sitting on the throne? If the Father did, then who is on the throne? If the Father, then why was someone needed to take it? Why were they weeping that no one could if the Father took the scroll out of the Father's hand?

Oneness people often use these verses to make thier claim. As I was reading them today, I noticed something that they ignore.

I ask you if the one God and Father is the Spirit and the Son, then what do these words mean?

"one Spirit, one Lord, one God"

It says there is One God the Father, but also acknowledges a Spirit and a Lord right along side him. How do you answer that. Paul refers often to God as the Father and Jesus as our Lord and savior. Here is says there is one of each, that they are not the same, yet you say this means they are. What do you say the one spirit and the one Lord referring to?

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]Lorelei, I just sent you an email, could you either post or email letting me know that you got it. Thanks Brian.

 

GrannyGumbo,

Thank you for your kind words. I have been meaning to share my expierience with you, since you were not here long ago when I did so. I do tend to be more of a private person, so I don't share it often. There is a reason that I am so educated in this matter, why the Lord placed it upon my heart to learn and understand all that they believe.

My husband came from a Oneness pentecostal background (though at the time I had no idea what that meant or what they believed.) After our marriage, I rededicated myself to the Lord and began a journey of renewing my life with the Lord as my leader and guide. My husband began joining me at a non denominational in home Bible Study group on Tuesday evenings. After he began to renew his faith, he found out from his brother that their was a revival going on at his old church. We weren't sure if we wanted to go or not, but the pastor personally invited him and so we went.

Now, a little background on the family in this church. My brother-in-law was the asst. Preacher and he led the music, the preacher was his father-in-law. My brother-in-law and his wife were the ones that had taken my husband into the church when he was a youth. My husband had received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost before and he spoke in tongues. Later, after leaving that church, he got into drinking and eventually he began to delve into the occult. (the significance of that didn't register until later)

So we went to the revival at his brother's church. It was the first time I had ever been to a pentecostal church, but I didn't care. I didn't care what denomination we visited, I was just too excited that my husband and I were both attending church together! It was the first time for that, besides our wedding.

I had been brought up to believe in a second Spirit baptism, but I had never experienced it. My parents quit attending church when I was very small. After becoming saved and beginning to read my bible, I believed that tongues were a gift of the Spirit still for today, yet it wasn't a gift that everyone had, as explained in 1 Corinthians 12.

I didn't know what to expect, but as others were silently praying (many of them in tongues) before the service began, I too prayed. I thanked the Lord that my husband and I were both in church and as I knew that different denominations just meant that we worshipped differently, I prayed that I would be open to thier form of worship. I believed in submitting to my husband if this were the church he chose, I knew I would soon be joining him here. Thus began the service.

The preaching was fine, I had no real problem with the sermon. It was louder then I was used to and the people around me were also loud. A few began to dance down the aisles, and some were praising in tongues. I still was determined to not let my personal preferences of a worship style keep me from worshiping the Lord in my own way.

Then came the invitation. My husband actually went forward to the alter! Now, the baptist that I am, I had a completely different idea of what that meant and what was about to happen. While my husband was up there praying (and men began to surround him), a little girl of about 8 years or so came up to me and asked me if I wanted to pray. How can you refuse to pray with a child of God??? Let the little ones come to Him! She took my hand and she led me to the alter, and here is where the truth began to be revealed.

As I knelt down at the alter, the girl left my side! The ladies of the church began to surround me and the next thing I know all these women are trying to get me to be baptized with the Spirit and speak in tongues! I look over at my husband, whose hands are lifted in the air, and he is speaking an unintelligable language. I began to become frightened. They were all insisting and demanding that I was almost there. I could almost do it. I almost had the Spirit. I was never so scared in all my life. Something felt wrong, terribly terribly wrong. I had the Spirit within me, I knew that for certain. They were telling me I did not.

After the service my brother-in-law and his wife tried to explain some things to me. They tried to convince me that I needed this baptism and speaking of tongues as the proof of it or I was damned to hell.

I asked them how come it didn't say that everyone in Acts spoke in tongues. They didn't know.

I asked them how come in Acts 2 it was actual earthly languages, but they said that the first speaking in tongues in v 4 was different from that in v 5 because it hadn't been noised abroud yet. ( I later see that the word abroad does not mean what you think it does. It means heard a sound. That is one reason I quit using the KJV. That word certainly doesn't mean today what it did then)

We talked about many of the issues and I was unconvinced. I also couldn't believe that they condemned me to hell because I didn't have one of the gifts of the Spirit that Paul tells not everyone will have. No where has anyone ever shown me anywhere where tongues as the evidence in the 3 times it is mentioned in acts is not a gift of the Spirit.

Anyway, to make a long story short, it caused some problems in my marriage and eventually my husband and I both stopped going to our churches. My husband quit smoking, but he took drinking back up again.

During that time I began to study this subject more deeply. After all, If I was going to hell and could know it by whether or not I spoke in tongues I wanted to know.

The posts you read here a result of over 3 years of study. The book of Acts read many times and the only commentaries or sources I read other then the Bible were Apostolic ones. I didn't want my research to be influenced by what I was taught but by the Word of God alone.

Through my research and posting here, my husband has began to change his views. He will tell you he doesn't know what happened when he spoke in tongues. I think he doesn't want to think about it. He will agree that not everyone who is saved will speak in tongues. He can't believe how people can defend such a belief and read the same Bible he does. There is still a lot he is unsure of and I admit he isn't actively seeking answers on these particular issues, but he is reading the Word of God daily and that is the only source he will now use for his beliefs.

The reason I keep posting and keep at this, is for the very souls of those who are following this false doctrine. My husband had a baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues and later he was summoning demons to do his bidding. How does one explain that????

The Spirit of God that is within me will not leave or forsake me, or hand me over to demons. I haven't spoken in tongues, but I don't need that to know that I am saved. For whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I truly understand what you are going through and have been through. I am there myself. Keep studying the Word and keep seeking after truth. You are doing an excellent job defending it! May God bless you as you stand up for Him among those who want to pervert His Truth!

~Lorelei

PS. Sorry about the length, but you will soon find that seldom do I talk about personal issues. I make them lengthy so I cover everything and then change the subject back the Word of God and the Lord it speaks of! God bless!

 

Oneness,

I sent you a pm.

I would also like any Oneness believer to respond to the scriptures I have written above!

~Lorelei

 

I sure do thank you for that testimony, Lorelei. It is heart-breaking to read the similarities. When our son & his wife, along with their charismatic friends went to an apostolic church, she said a young girl came up to her (while he was down front), but she would not go. She stood there crying, seeing what was happening to her husband, but powerless to stop it. We raised our son the best we could & thought he was grounded in Baptist doctrine; but he had gotten in such a backslidden condition or overstressed at work, or something, anyway, it happened. I truly believe he was saved when he was 10, so I don't quite understand how he could come under demonic influence; I've never studied this. I don't see how demons can possess a saved person, but I wonder if there's such a thing as oppressing one? I get all mixed-up on my terminologies, so forgive me if I sound stupid. I'm really very surprised Oneness can continue on this Board. The Bishop here has a computer, but doesn't allow all his members to own one (maybe a select few?). The ones who do have access is from their jobs. Their multi-million $$$ building is coming along quite rapidly, so things is really popping around here. I pray every single day for the Lord to send us a pastor after His own heart. My son-in-law leads us in our assembly, but he swears the Lord's not calling him to preach. He's a farmer by trade. All the southern baptist here think it's just honkey-dorey what they do (live & let live), or I get "judge not!" Well, thanks, again & I will keep you, along with susanpet, in my prayers. Please keep my son, Patrick (29) & his son Brian (4) in your all's prayers. Patricia (GG)

 

"By the way, does Christ or baptism save you? "

Baptism does not save you. But can you really believe in Jesus then not do what he said? Did he not say if you love me, keep my commandments? Is baptism not commanded?
Seriously, what does it mean to believe in Jesus and make him your Lord?

 

"I asked them how come in Acts 2 it was actual earthly languages, but they said that the first speaking in tongues in v 4 was different from that in v 5 because it hadn't been noised abroud yet"

I don't know anything about the people that told you that, but they are wrong, and that's not typical Pentecostal belief. Verse 5 was quite obviuosly referring to the same thing that happened in verse 4.
I know there are people who use the name "Pentecostal" that are quite confused; but I don't believe that's the majority of us.

 

"If the son is the Father, there is but only one witness to the Son."

This is where you keep misrepresenting oneness doctrine. The son is NOT the Father; but Jesus is both the Father and the Son because Isaiah 9:6 says so.
Do you not believe Jesus is God? The same God, or another God? You believe in one God, right?

"Who took the scroll from the one sitting on the throne? If the Father did, then who is on the throne? If the Father, then why was someone needed to take it? Why were they weeping that no one could if the Father took the scroll out of the Father's hand?"

I have a better on e for you. In Revelation 3:21, it says "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."
Now explain to me how we will sit with Jesus in his throne if he's not in his own throne, but is set down with his Father in his throne.

Also tell me who is the first and the last in Rev. 1:11-18.

 

". Here is says there is one of each, that they are not the same, yet you say this means they are. What do you say the one spirit and the one Lord referring to?"

Lorelei, you continually ignore what we try to explain to you. The Spirit is not the physical body of Jesus; where do you get the idea that we think it is? Jesus said he will send the Spirit; he did not send his physical body back to us. But how does that make three "persons"??? Do you believe the Spirit is a physical "person"? Yes or no?
Is the Spirit of Christ the same Spirit as the Spirit of God, or not? Does the verse you quoted say anything at all about "persons"? If so quote it and highlight the part that indicates "persons". I really don't see it in there.
Do you not understand the real difference in our belief? We do not believe there is any indication of three separate "persons" in the Bible and I have not seen any in the Bible. If the Holy Spirit is a distinct "person" separate from the Father and the Son, is the Holy Spirit equally God with the Father and the Son? How then is the Son "sending" another equally God person? It could have just said "the Spirit will come."
According to Joel 2:28, is the third "person" poured out by the first person?

 

Does the Lord's Supper save you?
Does foot washing save?
Does calling "no man your father" save you?
Does calling "no man your master" save you?
Does not doing your alms before men save you?

Would you like more examples? Jesus gave many commands. What does it mean to believe in Jesus? You answer that for yourself. Does it really mean to keep all his commands in order to be saved. If that were the case no man would be saved. Think about it.
DHK

 

Here is what Chemnitz said:

"Ordinarily three persons have three essences, three wills three distinct operations. But in the Trinity the three persons have one and the same essence, not three; one set of divine attributes, not three; one operation in divine works, not three. "

That is precisely what we are trying to say; so why then do you criticize our understanding? If the three "persons" are one and the same "essence" then that's not three "persons."
Chemnitz says "person" is a better word than "manifestation" but is it really? Or do you think a "manifestation" is something less than real? Can God not manifest himself in various ways? Why does "person" not imply a separate essence?
Or is Chemnitz wrong? Are there actually three separate essences? Is the trinity actually three Gods that cooperate as one, as in one team? One trinitarian actually tried to tell me that. Are three three essences, or one, as Chemnitz says? What do you really believe? Do you know?

 

". Does it really mean to keep all his commands in order to be saved. If that were the case no man would be saved. Think about it.
DHK "

Okay, here's what it says in I John 1:4-5, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected; hereby know we that we are in him."
Was John wrong?

 

No, John was not wrong. John was giving the evidence of a Christian's salvation, not the prerequisites of a sinner in order to be saved. There is a huge difference. You say that baptism (along with other works) are necessary to salvation. John says they are a result of salvation. They are an evidence of salvation. "Hereby know we that we are in him."
DHK

 

Norman, how is it that the Bible tells us that all manner of sin may be forgiven us; yet, we can sin against the Father and we can sin against the Son and still be forgiven, but to anyone who blasphemes the Holy Ghost, there is no forgiveness.

 

Lorelie, your experience in the pentacostal church sounds just like mine. I was also afraid. I felt something sickening and wrong going on. I have spent the last 10 years studying up on this. I too know I am saved. I know where I use to be and what Jesus has done for me.
IN CHRIST,
Susan

 

Matt 12:
Ok when Jesus was casting out devils was the third person of A trinity there with Jesus casting out a devil?

Now if these are three people as you say than that statement there would make the Holy Ghost superior to the Father, And Son. Guys anyway you look at it the Trinity is never going to make since to us or to God.

 

No, John was not wrong. John was giving the evidence of a Christian's salvation, not the prerequisites of a sinner in order to be saved. There is a huge difference. You say that baptism (along with other works) are necessary to salvation. John says they are a result of salvation. They are an evidence of salvation. "Hereby know we that we are in him."
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]DHK we are not saved by our works, we are saved b/c of the Grace of God.

 

Norman,

Do you believe that the people that heard them speak in tongues were there at the time it happened or not?

~Lorelei