Basic Trinitarian Doctrine

[Norman]

"I know God is NOT a 3-headed creature, nor are there 3 gods. "

But that's what you get when you insist there are distinct persons. You want to have it both ways. You are confused. Trinity is confusion.

lorelei, yes they were languages understood by various people in Acts 2. That is obvious.

About Matthew 28:19, diagram that sentence like you would in an English class at school, and you will see that there is one name (singular) that is the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. It is not saying "Father Son and Holy Ghost" is one name. The name of the Son is Jesus; no? So does not the Father have a name? What is the name of the Holy Ghost? The name of the Son is not Son; surely you know better than that? So Father is not the name of the Father; what is it?

I have saved Lorelei's post to work on tonight. I have to go to work in a few minutes.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

The Father's name is God; the Son's name is Jesus; & the Holy Ghost's name is Holy Spirit. I am not confused~I know Who God is & I don't dare ridicule Who He is. He is omnipotent. He is Omniscient. He is Omnipresent.

God is not an egg, yet when I look at an egg, I see 3 things. The yolk is that egg, the white is that egg & the shell is that egg. Not a very good illustration, but it's all I can think of. When I think of God, I think of Him, His Son Jesus & the Holy Spirit.

 

[Norman]

"OH, there was a time that Paul referred to himself as two or three witnesses.
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"Can you please find the reference? I would like to read that verse."

II Corinthians 13:1.

 

[Norman]

"But in the verse you are talking about, there is the witness of the Spirit, plus the witness of the physical person of Jesus; that makes two witnesses.
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"That isn't what Jesus said. He said one witness was himself and the other was His Father."

What, you think the Father was a human witness?
Is the Father not Spirit?

 

[Norman]

I didn't copy all the other comments and verses about Jesus coming from theFather, and going back to the Father; I don't know why you think that is a problem. Are you thinking that we believe the Father was totally contained in the body of Jesus? That's not my belief, or the belief ofany "oneness" person that I know. As I have previously explained, Jesus was a flesh-and-blood man; that physical body was not, is not, the Eternal Spirit. John 16:28 says (Jesus speaking) "I came forth from the Father . . ." This is literally true, and in no way contradicts oneness doctrine. But I see a major problem for Trinitarian doctrine here. You believe there were threedivine persons in heaven, right? And one of the three came down from heaven to become the Son of Mary, right? But that's not what Luke 1:35 or John 16:28 says. Did Jesus not say "I can of mine own self do nothing"? If he was "God the Son", one of three divine persons, then that would not be ture. But what is true is that He did not come to do the works of a man, but the works of God. Then Jesus left this earth, was no longer here as a flesh-and-blood man, but returned in Spirit. Of course he went back to the Father; how does that make the Father a person? It all comes back to the same thing; you are trying to force human assumptions on the Bible, and it won't work.
Let me give you one more: In John 14:23, Jesus said "If a man love me, hewill keep my words, and my Father will love him, and we (yes, we) willcome unto him, and make our abode with him." Okay, do you have the physical body of Jesus inside you? How do you have both the Father and the Son making their abode with you?
You also mentioned John 12:44, "He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me." They weren't just believing in a man, butin God.

 

[Norman]

"Originally posted by Norman:
I explain that the Son is not the Father, but Jesus is the Father and the Son; you call that double talk, but it is precisely what the Bible says.
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Lorelei: "Then how can Jesus be the Son? That makes no sense."

Do you realize what you are asking? Are you not aware that Isaiah says a Son will be called the Everlasting Father? Look it up; Isaiah 9:6. Somebody might try to tell you that just means Jesus is the Father of eternity, but is "God the Father" not the Father of eternity? Can there be more than one who is the Father of eternity? Look at Luke 1:35, what the angel said to Mary, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Why can't we just accept what that says? Then look at John 1:1-14, I Timothy 3:16 and Colossians 2:9-10. The one God caused Mary to conceive, and that which was born of her is "God manifest in the flesh." Wrong? No. He explained in John 14:10 that "I am in the Father, and the Father in me" so how then are they two distinct persons if each is in the other?Jesus walked the earth as a flesh-and-blood man; but he was not just aphysical man; he was "God in man."

 

[Norman]

Lorelei: "You admit that Jesus said I and my Father are One. They are One God, yet he didn't say "I am my Father". There is a great difference. While saying they were One, he also recognized both distinct persons."

Now show me where you get "persons." Where in there does it say anything about God being a person? As you said, there is a difference between the Father and the Son, which I have tried to explain, but why do you want to insist on the Father being a separate "person"? Why do you ignore what Jesus said in John 14:9-10? Or maybe you should just explain what you mean by "person": what is the substance of a person? I have not seen that answered.

Lorelei: "God is the First and the Last, they are the Same God. You again, confuse what we say.

I ask you, Who is sitting at the Father's right hand?"

First part, I don't confuse what you say, you confuse it yourself by insisting on saying they are distinct "persons." Now which of these persons is the first and the last? Which one was dead, and is alive forever more? Was God ever dead?
Second part, it does not say in my Bible that Jesus as "at" the Father's right hand, it says Jesus was "on" the right hand of God. So tell me, do you think the right hand of God is a physical right hand? Which direction is God facing? Jesus said in Mark 14:62, ". . . and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." Also in Acts 7, Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God; it doesn't say the Father, it just says God; so why would "God" be one of three persons, and not the whole God?Which brings up another point; to believe in the Trinity, you must have a flexible meaning of God to make it fit your doctrine; sometimes God is just the Father, sometimes God the Son, other times you can't identify which ofyour three persons it means.

Lorelei: "In v 26 The Father is sending the Spirit in the Name of the Son."

Then in John 15:26 Jesus is sending the Comforter, from the Father. How do you explain that?

 

[Norman]

What is the main disagreement between oneness and Trinity doctrine? Are we saying there is no Father or Holy Spirit apart from the physical person of Jesus? Not at all; there is definitely a distinction; but how does that make God "three persons"? Is there a distinction between your intellect and your emotions? Certainly; but does that make them distinct persons? No; so why does a distinction between various aspects of God make them distinct persons? Yes, there was the physical person, Jesus, that was born of Mary, died on the cross, etc.; but what do you mean by saying the Father and Holy Spirit are distinct "persons"? What is the substance of these persons?
Are we just disagreeing on terminology? I have suggested that to some Trinitarians in the past but they usually won't agree with that. So are we disagreeing on the form of God? Who is God, anyway? Is God not the Father? Is there ever a time that God is not the Father? Why? Is God not the Spirit? Why does the Spirit have to be a distinct "person" in order to be sent? Why do you limit God like that?

 

[Norman]

"God is not an egg, yet when I look at an egg, I see 3 things"

When you look at God, you will only see Jesus. The only way you will ever see God is in the person of Jesus.

 

[DHK]

Norman,
Is the Holy Spirit a who or a what? How do you define the Holy Spirit?