The importance of the doctrine of the Trinity

Of course it's up to you whose words you ignore and whether you think the beliefs shared on that site are true or false.

But your choice to disagree with that web page or ignore the words of some people who are quoted there doesn't stop it demonstrating that hrhema was wrong to say "The post apostolic fathers did not teach [the Trinity] or believe it. It came into existence 325 a.d.".

That was why I posted it.

Helen/AITB </font>[/QUOTE]I really don't care 'why' you posted it. That is your perogative if you want to post websites with lies on them.

hrhema could very well be TOTALLY correct in his assertion and YOU could be totally wrong because your belief that there were people teaching a pagan 3 headed god in the First Century Church is based on someone who has been TOTALLY and completely discredited in my mind.

If you lie JUST ONCE, everything else you say can be taken into question.

Ignatious is not trustworthy.

Just for the record, my last post wasn't an argument.

It was a warning.

God Bless

 

Ok, what are you talking about?

So you think that Ignatious didn't know he was lying?

Well, there are lots of sites that post lies. Especially about SDA's. I have personally corrected some of those sites via email, to tell them that they are misrepresenting the SDA Church. Do you think they fixed it? NOPE.

No, in case you haven't noticed, I don't really put allot of stock in opinion. The BIBLE is who he disagrees with. Ignatious' writings quite possibly could also be a forgery. Have you never studied this guy?

You sound like a little kid. Was that post ADDRESSED to you? NO. It was a warning for ALL, to check their historical references for TRUTH before they use them to support a doctrine. The CC is based on the Bible and History. I only use the Bible. Using history to support a doctrine is dangerous. Just because something is written down doesn't make it right.

Did I say you couldn't post links?

Get a grip.

 

What game are we playing?

 

No, I know exactly what I posted. Did it have "helen,...." at the beginning of it? NO. It was for ALL. I quoted you so that ALL would know what I was talking about.

This is substantive argument?

Who are you kidding? You think that just because you aren't putting your words in caps that I don't know that you are expressing anger?

When I put ONE word in caps in a sentence, it is for emphasis.

THIS WOULD BE YELLING.

Sheesh

 

(3AM)

"What game are we playing?"


(Zinger)

It's called FUTILITY my friend and there are no winners !!!



Just rely on "Whosoever Will"

Saves on the old brain, sleep better at night, fight less with the kids etc.

It's called "The peace that passeth all understanding"

 

Helen,

You are going to try to ascert that when you said this:

"A warning? To me? About what? About posting links to sites that you don't happen to agree with? The policy on what links may be included on here is set by those who run the Baptist Board, not by you."

That you were not saying it in anger?

Please.

 

Has anyone ever read these?

Apostles' Creed

I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary:
Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hades:
The third day he rose again from the dead:
He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
I believe in the Holy Ghost:
I believe in the holy universal church: the communion of saints:
The forgiveness of sins:
The resurrection of the body:
And the life everlasting. Amen.

Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe one holy universal and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the universal faith;
Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the universal faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
So are we forbidden by the universal religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hades, rose again the third day from the dead;
He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
and shall give account of their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the universal faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

The Definition of Chalcedon (A.D. 451)

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

[ March 24, 2003, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

The last posts proves exactly what I have stated.
Protestant churches jumped on the Trinitarian bandwagon. They did not come out of Roman Catholicism completely. This is also why I say that those who hold to part of the Catholic Doctrine really have no right to criticize the RCC for any of its teachings.

The site I posted is only one site that I have studied. This site is not anti-trinitarian nor or other site I have read. Yet, I cannot accept a doctrine that the post apostolic Fathers did not teach.

So many people praise the Emperor Constantine for the Council of Nicea but fail to mention that he recanted his belief in the Trinity and fully embraced Arianism before he died.

These facts should make anyone question why it took this long for a doctrine to come to light.
The elohim explanation is a cop out. It does not prove a Trinity. I think if there has been proof that scriptures have been added to the Bible I would question the validity of the reason behind this.

I am sorry it is very strange to me that people will quote from councils of the Roman Catholic Church and their creeds as basis for this belief but condemn CAtholics for their other beliefs
even when the same councils came up with the belief in Mary etc.

 

Good points hrhema,

I also can't help but point out that they state that if someone doesn't believe THIS EXACT statement, that they CANNOT be saved.

I'm sorry, but NO MAN decides another mans fate with God.

NO MAN.

This claim that you MUST believe in a trinity to be saved is just ONE MORE of the LIES of Babylon coming into the so called Protestant churches.

THIS is my point exactly in my thread about Psuedo Catholic Protestants.

The churches, EVEN MINE, that are teaching the trinity are BOWING to Babylon.

I'm not doing it anymore. I'm sorry folks, but I would rather be called ananthema by the CC, called a cultist by orthodox Christianity, and be shunned by man before I bow to Babylon.

I want you all to remember that I said this.

When the day comes REMEMBER my words.

Remember Hannaniah, Azariah, and Michiael. (aka Rack, Shack, and Benny).

Remeber Daniel.

Psalms 46

1. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
2. Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
3. Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.
4. There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.
5. God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early.
6. The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
7. The Lord of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.
8. Come, behold the works of the Lord, what desolations he hath made in the earth.
9. He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.
10. Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
11. The Lord of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.

God Bless

 

Helen.

Veggie Tales.

I thought you had kids????

Sheesh

I KNOW their actual names.

Daniel 1:6. Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah:
7. Unto whom the prince of the eunuchs gave names: for he gave unto Daniel the name of Belteshazzar; and to Hananiah, of Shadrach; and to Mishael, of Meshach; and to Azariah, of Abednego.

Daniel= Belteshazzar
Hananiah= Shadrach
Mishael= Meshach
Azariah= Abednego

What are you talking about? Quoting from the same Bible the Catholics use????

What does THAT have to do with ANYTHING???

 

Helen,

If we applied that rule to life....

Does Babylon drink water?
Does Babylon use the toilet?
Does Babylon drive cars?
Does Babylon use COMPUTERS?

The Bible was written by Holy Men of God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

I compare EVERY verse that I study to the original texts on my PC to SEE that there was no 'mistranslation' done by a group of scribes hired by a King almost a thousand years ago.

They are usually right.

I have found some places where certain words were used that don't convey what is in the original as well as they could have, but HEY, I have the AUTHOR dwelling inside me, and He does a pretty good job of letting me know what it means.

God Bless

 

Well then, you had best stop believing the doctrine that baptism isn't essential to salvation then! They taught that a person recieved remission of sins IN baptism and that it was neccesary to salvation! Justin Martyr's words are that he learned from the apostles that the purpose of baptism is to "recieve in the water the remission of sins formerly committed."

PS: Also note that most of their writings are simply exhortations to "obey your bishops" and not heavily doctrinal works.

[ March 24, 2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

Unless that group is known for changing the Law of God, wearing out the Saints of God, and making up doctrines that cannot be supported from Scripture. THEY came up with the Trinity. Find that word in ANY document that is not of Catholic origin, that predates the Catholic ones.

I agree! I also read from several newer translations for the word change issue.

I have been studying INTENSIVELY for about 3 years now, but even before I started studying so intensively I had already read the Bible through 3 times. (bible college)

I will never stop studying. I always keep my mind open, and my heart soft to the working of God's Spirit. I want EVERYTHING that He has for ME!!

God Bless

[ March 24, 2003, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]