Religion of Envy

The Jesus of the Bible is God. No other Jesus can save and so like you said: "I might ask how those you mentioned could ever
respond to our requests when they don't even exist in the first place" So how can a Jesus who is not God, and thus not the Jesus of the Bible respond to our requests?

The point here is not so much those who haven't heard or don't understand, it is those who reject it, especially those who reject it after being shown scripture.

 

(Dualhunter)

So how can a Jesus who is not God, and thus not the Jesus of the
Bible respond to our requests?

(Singer)
That's also my question. How could a false Jesus create changed
lives in a subject and cause them to read the bible, care about a
friend's salvation and seek the things of God. My upbringing did
not include a knowledge of the trinity; nevertheless the God that
answered my heart's call is the only one that CAN answer the call
and respond like He did.

(Dualhunter)

The point here is not so much those who haven't heard or don't understand,
it is those who reject it, especially those who reject it after being shown scripture.

(Singer)

That would leave 3AM as an innocent bystander then. Her reaction to
reject the Trinity may only be a stepping block in her eventual accepting it.
Catholics use the same arguement in your last statement to purport their
claims of their lone authenticity as God's appointed teachers.
They claim that rejection of their doctrines leaves one subject
to deception and the wiles of the devil.

So, I'm careful not to heed warnings of this nature. I grew up hearing warnings
against 'worldly churches' like Baptist. I've learned not to honor them all.

 

Mat.7:
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
--Unsaved that look just like the saved, but in fact are not; they are false teachers.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
--These verses are very revealing. Christ, the Judge, who also is God Himself, will send to eternal condemnation those who have professed to be Christians: they called Him Lord; they cast out demons; they did works in His name; felt as if theey were filled with His Spirit; but yet Jesus will say, "I never knew you." True Biblical Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship; a relationship with GOD, whom we call Jesus Christ. There are those on this board that deny that the one and only God is Jesus Christ. They some day will find themselves listening to Jesus words: "Depart from ye.."

a changed life A reformed life is not necessarily a life that is changed by the power of Christ.

3AM is not an innocent bystander. She knows the Bible, is able to quote much Scripture, and, in fact, has studied this subject thoroughly enough to devise her own theological ideas on the trinity, knowing fully what the orthodox position is. Her position is an outright denial of the deity of Christ. She does not believe in the trinity, neither does she believe (in spite of all her learning) that Jesus Christ is the one and only God. This makes her a heretic with no possibility of salvation. She has rejected the truth concerning Christ.
Jesus said: "If you believe not that I am He, you shall die in your sins."
She does not believe that Christ is "He," i.e., God.

The Bible commands us to associate ourselves with a Bible-teaching local church. I wouldn't trust all Baptist churches either. There are many different kinds of Baptist churches. Find one that teaches and preaches the Bible. But don't be a hypocrite--one who says that because you've had a bad experience in one church, therefore all churches are bad. That's a lousy excuse. The Lord expects us to be a member of a local church.
DHK

 

DHK,

We're going backwards here once again and I have this feeling that
there are only three of us watching/posting to this thread

"Working out our own salvation" could mean just what we see here;
choosing a church (if any), choosing a denomination, experiencing
circumstances in life, settling in our minds the issue of gifts, tongues,
who we associate with etc. Unending conflict comes when we claim
our own flavor of thought and worship is the only accepted one.

I'm actually glad that there is so much turmoil in resolving those issues.
I'm thankful that I'm free in the Lord to allow Him to have me experience
my walk with Him on an individual basis. I didn't choose to be raised
in what may be a cult and I also did not have control over what people
of various denominations would influence me. Life happens

When I associated with Wesleyans for 25 years, I reflected many of their
doctrines for which I'm thankful. Overlapping influence by Pentacostals
enlightened me more. I was also grieved by many of those associations,
but remain a strong supporter of ''grace through faith". That faith does
not allow rules and regulations to taint it. To address and conform to
someone else's beliefs would at times require me to deny the truths that
I have been given.

Much to the dismay of those who have strived to influence me with their
private or denominational standards, I remain intact. (The 'working out
our own salvation' issue).

Catholicism has been unloaded on me to no avail. The Sabbath worship/rest
issue remains unimpressionable. My 2x2 upbringing has fled from me due to
their claims of exclusivism. Other's denial of gifts, baptism of the Holy Spirit and
speaking in tongues hasn't convinced me otherwise.

Now that this has gotten too long already, I'll make another post to respond
to what I started to.

 

I find it troubling that you so disrespect another person's individual
dealings with God. My own testimony would include a negative time
in my life that brought me to my knees where I beckoned my creator
in the only way I knew how. My understandings are not identical to
everyone else's, but that should not be discounted as false faith.

3AM has not rejected Christ at all. You say she has rejected ''the truth
concerning Christ". It may be you who is misunderstanding.

The issue seems to be the scripture:
"If you believe not that I am He, you shall die in your sins."

We've been over this before, but to me that does not ONLY mean what you
claim it does, and I wouldn't base salvation on your understanding of it.

Did I open another can of worms ?

Singer

[ April 17, 2003, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Singer ]

 

Singer,

If man was given an opportunity to see God in action

1) Man would notice that Gods creation doesn't want anything of God.

2) God has to give man a new communication device before they will even listen to one word from him.

3) God gives that communication device to them. they dont ask for it.He just gives it to them for HIS Purposes. It is entirely His choice. no prompts. (because they dont know their old one is not working correctly.....)

4) Its called HIS sacrifice. man doesnt even know if it is an animal or a man. turns out that its a man. now we have to discover its name. character and capabilities.

5) man has to learn all these facts AFTER God has given him the capability to communicate to him.
After Man receives his NEW SPIRIT.
THE COMMUNICATION DEVICE.

now if you have a new spirit..are you saved ?
and did you do anything or for that fact have to know anything to Get it. (or become "saved")

Me2

[ April 17, 2003, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

Me2,

To have the Son is to have life....and having the Son IS having
the Holy Spirit, so the answer is ..."Yes".

The bible also says we love Him because He first loved us and
it explains that many are called but few are chosen.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren
beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen
you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief
of the truth

As for doing or knowing anything, the answer is yes.
"Blessed are the feet of the messenger"
"Go and tell"
"The gospel will be proclaimed in all the world"

Yes, there is a purpose for preaching....to cause those who are
called ........to respond. And there is the right of those who are
called to refuse. (They would not be chosen).

You're into predestination thinking aren't you ?

Even that's a mystery.

Singer

 

Im into Giving God the benefit of the doubt and taking away all preconceived notions of man of knowing anything of God before God introduces the idea of a fallen condition to man.

If you cried out to God for mercy..how do you know that God has already given you the new spirit to recognize that you are actually in a fallen condition

(what I mean by fallen is to become seperated from the knowledge of Who God is)

fallen man "without" God doesnt care or realize that he is fallen or who or what God is.

the moment Man questions anything about what God does. God is moving In his life.

and predestination..dont know. I cant say what is the totality of this small part within the larger plan that we call the salvation of man. I can say that the few people who are chosen now are to become a participating role within a larger population of Gods creation.

the few loving the many..thats what man is becoming in the ages to come. or else what do you do with the non-elect in heaven.

I think of the current "body" of christ as the pre chosen welcome wagon of Gods creation in the future.

I asked this question earlier..just what is the purpose of the election in heaven ?

we will have one. Just as jesus died for Gods creation..We will also be sacrificing ourselves...
that is what we are currently being tested for.
who and what degree are you giving yourself up to being used of God in the future.

some are willing. while some arent.

some are not even asked

do you realize that jesus was speaking to Gods chosen people..they were already in Gods Sacrifice.
but they didnt contain the holy spirit because Gods propitiator wasnt sacrificed yet. He was "preparing" them for THEIR FUTURE. its like their in the same room..he's asking them to come closer to Him. and to speak to them about lord...they were going to go through the same process of sanctification as we go through today.
Baby, child, young man and father. As john (the jew) described later in 1 John.
the process is exactley the same. DHK says that you have to know these things first..I disagree.
I say we start off as babes to the wisdom of God..not Geniuses.
we're given a spirit. we learn our high priests name, his office. and finally the conquering over death of our lord..

that takes some people days, some years. some a lifetime to comprehend.

while others..they are happy just to know God loves them and has prepared a sacrifice for them.
no names..no details

just because God's plans are to educate some to a more deeper understanding of his ways does not mean everyone is being driven to know. This is Gods ways and methods. not mans and certainly not dictated by religious organizations that man surrounds himself with. if anything you see here..its religion becomeing scared of losing authority over some not following their preconceived methodology.

thats what envy is...its competition. Ive always been taught that choice is Gods Gift to man. Religion doesnt think so. it competes for control of your choices. and myself, I dont have any rights to take that away from anyone.

I just offer my opinion..thats called witnessing.

Me2

 

Notice this statement carefully. Me2 is a universalist believing that ALL will be in heaven, including Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Husseing, etc. To her it makes no sense in having a Hell at all since all will end up in Heaven anyway. Thus when you get right down to it Christ's sacrifice was all in vain.
DHK

 

and as well ,I can be a good little baptists and talk about the people whom God the father only calls as well as chooses.

many called few chosen..

have you actually noticed God doesnt speak in the bible about the rest of the population of the world.

just those whom he opens the eyes and ears of
in the bible. It refers to those as "the body".

unfortunately within that group, there are the overcomers and the non overcomers. those who accomplish the trials of sanctification and those who do not.

But both groups still Go to heaven.

(or Does God rip out the spirit he originally gave to men so that he could communicate with them.)

universal salvation only comes to mind when I continually remind myself..
I am Not God. and my acceptance to love all men denotes that all men have the opportunity of standing in front of God justified..seeing that no one actually deserves to stand there at all.
you ,nor I ,nor any man..born of adam
I give them that right. no let me refraise that.

I do not take that right away from them.

If God chooses to allow all men to stand there in the last second of time and call them justified...
thats His Right...Thats why I CALL HIM LORD.

Me2

 

I think you got it backwards. Christ's sacrifice was in vain if all would be in hell. Because then no-one would have been saved by it.

On the other hand, if one or more people are in heaven and not hell because Jesus died for them - which is true of Me2's belief because she believes they'll all be in heaven because Jesus died for them - then Christ's sacrifice was not in vain at all!

Helen

 

(Singer)

Hey Helen, I think I could get ''reasoned '' to death


(DHK)

She admits that Jesus Christ is God. She denies that Jesus Christ
is the Most High God, or the one and only God.

(Singer)

Guess I didn't realize 3AM admits that Jesus is God. Why would you
throw her faith out the window then for her reluctance to also call Him
the Most High God ? I'm sure she's not referring to Allah or some other
imaginary god.


John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye
believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

Can we concentrate on this scripture and respond after reading commentaries?
(Which I already have and you get an A+ so far, DHK, but you have not
passed the final exam yet.

My question would be:
Does Jesus not also indicate that He is our savior, the one prophesied to come,
the evidence revealed , the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the one who would die
on the cross etc. ?

 

Yes, Jesus would have to die if God knew that all would be in heaven because Jesus would die for them.

Why not say, why did Jesus have to die if God knew you would be in heaven? Because you wouldn't be if Jesus didn't die, of course.

As I understand it, the 'Christian universalist position' is that all go to heaven because Jesus died. If Jesus hadn't died none would go to heaven. Therefore Jesus death was necessary and sufficient for all, rather than for some.

It's like Calvinism except that you say "the elect"="all people".

Helen

 

Here are what a couple of commentaries say on this verse.

Joh 8:24
24. if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins--They knew well enough what He meant (Mr 13:6,
Mk.13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Greek; compare Mt 24:5). But He would not, by speaking it out, give them the materials for a charge for which they were watching. At the same time, one is irresistibly reminded by such language, so far transcending what is becoming in men, of those ancient declarations of the God of Israel, "I AM HE" (De 32:39; Isa 43:10; 46:4; 48:12).
Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. (Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown)

Joh 8:24
Verse 24. That I am. That I am the Messiah.
{v} "I said" Joh 8:21 (Barnes)

Joh 8:21
Verse 21. I go my way. Cmt. on Joh 7:33.Ye shall die in your sins. That is, you will seek the Messiah; you will desire his coming, but the Messiah that you expect will not come; and, as you have rejected me, and there is no other Saviour, you must die in your sins. You will die unpardoned, and as you did not seek me where you might find me, you cannot come where I shall be. Observe,

1st. All those who reject the Lord Jesus must die unforgiven. There is no way of pardon but by him. Cmt. on Ac 4:12.

2nd. There will be a time when sinners will seek for a Saviour but will find none. Often this is done too late, in a dying moment, and in the future world they may seek a deliverer, but not be able to find one.

3rd. Those who reject the Lord Jesus must perish. Where he is they cannot come. Where he is is heaven. Where he is not, with his favour and mercy, there is hell; and the sinner that has no Saviour must be wretched for ever. (Barnes)
DHK

 

Well...I don't really understand your point here - I thought that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Our own presence in heaven will make it a place full of a bunch of crooks, won't it?

Are you a Calvinist? Do you believe the only people who choose God are the ones who are enabled to by God and the rest reject Him? If so then there's no difference between Hitler and you or me except that God enabled some of us to receive His grace, right? It's not about us anyway.

I think Christian Universalism doesn't do away with the grace of God; it simply applies it to all men. No-one deserved it anyway, right? And isn't God going to have to do a huge transformation to each of us to prepare us for heaven anyway? To remove all sin from us? Are you saying God could do that for us but not for Hitler? Are you sure you're not making too much of "I chose God"?

I'm just asking...I'm not saying I'm a Christian Universalist - of course

Helen

 

DHK:

Okay....your position is:

We need a savior and we have one in Jesus Christ


And my position is :

We need a savior and we have one in Jesus Christ

If we can agree on that, then I've got to go and make myself a worldly
living and quit worrying about the mysteries of God.

Please say YES !! .

Singer